A Confession and possibly I need help

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I did NOT introduce this thread to bash Bostridge.

As the retiring Prime Minister has discovered, once you put something into the public domain ...

It's my puzzlement at how such instinctive likes and dislikes can form and persist, even when you know the performers are intelligent, consummate musicians. .

I don't know the answer to this - but earlier in the year there was a series, "The Brain with David Eagleman" shown on BBC2. An absolutely fascinating and insightful series (despite the presenter's "gee whizz!" style - he knew his stuff) about how the brain works and processes information. One programme in the series focussed on sight, and demonstrated how different people literally "see" very different things when in exactly the same situation (something that was well-known from police witness reports amongst other such data - but here using brain scans to measure/record brain activity) - we all receive exactly the same visual information, but our brains process this information in unique ways. It is believed that this is essential to our evolution as a social species - different members of, say, a hunting group combining their innate skills to create a successful "social" overview.

Hearing was not similarly investigated, but since watching the programme I have often wondered if the same sort of unique processing is at work here, too; and for the same evolutionary-originating purposes. That we all receive the same aural stimuli, but our brains process these stimuli in ways unique (-ish, I suppose) to ourselves, so that literally we all hear the same sounds completely differently from each other.

[EdgeleyRob]

Britten vocal stuff rarely sounds right!

No way José

His orchestral stuff is great!

Most certainly

[Richard Tarleton]

I did NOT introduce this thread to bash Bostridge.

I tried to go beyond that the last time this came up, by trying to isolate the elements in the voice I couldn't get on with, qualities shared by the "other tenor" I was referring to. It's certainly not merely "instinctive" on my part - it's things to do with sound, voice production.... Not being a voice coach or expert of any sort I struggle to describe it, but to me they sound over-studied, something slightly constricted or constrained in the voice, educated rather than natural and open....I can perhaps best explain it by contrasting it with those of other UK tenors whose voices I've always loved, and who enjoy a more natural, easy voice production - Wilfrid Brown, Martyn Hill, Anthony Rolfe Johnston, Richard Lewis, Dennis O'Neill....

Intelligent, consummate musician - certainly. I greatly enjoyed his book on Winterreise, just can't listen to him singing it (the "other tenor" has also sung the three Schubert cycles).

[Richard Tarleton]

The Handel aria currently playing on Essential Classics (the guest's first choice of the day) illustrates perfectly everything I find unlistenable-to about this voice. Above all diction and voice production. Lots love it, obviously.

[gurnemanz]

I don't always enjoy Bostridge but he is beautifully eloquent in VW's On Wenlock Edge with Bernard Haitink - a resplendent recording. I also like his Wolf outing (with Antonio Pappano turning up as a wonderful accompanist), even if he does sometimes seem to be overdoing his German diction a bit. His book on Winterreise is a labour of love and the fruit of long experience and the most thorough research. Something of a must-read for Lieder lovers.

[Sir Velo]

How is it that one person can revere and another cannot abide the same artist?
Same sounds presumably, fine music, fine brain of artist working the music, but...............

I see the names Renee Fleming, Placido Domingo for example, and for me, that is when I turn off.

Physiologically / emotionally why do people react so differently to the same voice?

I think it's because in the case of some of the names you cite the impression one gains is that the performance is foremost about "them" and not the music. In my own case, I acquired Mark Padmore's well received recital of Dowland; however, for me the voice just is not right for recreating a late sixteenth century aesthetic. OK, so none of us can know how the voice would have sounded then, but assuredly it would not have sounded like Padmore!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think it's because in the case of some of the names you cite the impression one gains is that the performance is foremost about "them" and not the music. In my own case, I acquired Mark Padmore's well received recital of Dowland; however, for me the voice just is not right for recreating a late sixteenth century aesthetic. OK, so none of us can know how the voice would have sounded then, but assuredly it would not have sounded like Padmore!

An neat distinction, SirV - not (if I've understood it correctly) quite what DracoM was meaning, which is more to do with why (to take your example) Padmore's voice in whatever repertoire is loved by some and loathed by others.

But to continue with your distinction - there's also the case where you can tell that a singer's voice isn't what the composer had imagined but which appeals even to listeners who are aware of this; Ferrier's Bach and Handel recordings (which I adore) immediately come to my mind.

[Richard Tarleton]

In my own case, I acquired Mark Padmore's well received recital of Dowland; however, for me the voice just is not right for recreating a late sixteenth century aesthetic. OK, so none of us can know how the voice would have sounded then, but assuredly it would not have sounded like Padmore!

Indeed - the "other tenor" I referred to. I bought the Padmore/Elizabeth Kenny Dowland recital, played it once and swiftly gave it away to someone I hoped might enjoy it more. Bostridge also came a cropper with Dowland(also with Liz Kenny) at the Proms 2 or 3 years ago. Martyn Hill the perfect Dowland tenor for me (on the Consort of Musicke complete JD). There's something completely natural, open and unaffected about his voice, completely lacking the veneer of self-consciousness and preciousness which seems to afflict certain English tenors. An often controversial poster on the old boards suggested it was down the the English choral scholar tradition.

[Sir Velo]

An neat distinction, SirV - not (if I've understood it correctly) quite what DracoM was meaning, which is more to do with why (to take your example) Padmore's voice in whatever repertoire is loved by some and loathed by others.

Indeed! Possibly, then, I would say it is that some listeners clearly relish the opportunity to hear a particular voice in whatever repertoire. For others, once one has formed a view as to how a particular piece should sound to hear it then performed in a completely different fashion can be a literally nerve wracking experience.

[Rolmill]

Indeed - the "other tenor" I referred to. I bought the Padmore/Elizabeth Kenny Dowland recital, played it once and swiftly gave it away to someone I hoped might enjoy it more. Bostridge also came a cropper with Dowland(also with Liz Kenny) at the Proms 2 or 3 years ago. Martyn Hill the perfect Dowland tenor for me (on the Consort of Musicke complete JD). There's something completely natural, open and unaffected about his voice, completely lacking the veneer of self-consciousness and preciousness which seems to afflict certain English tenors. An often controversial poster on the old boards suggested it was down the the English choral scholar tradition.

Yes, Martyn Hill's "Now, o now I needs must part" is possibly the single best Dowland song recording I know, largely for the reasons you suggest.

I don't entirely agree with you about Mark Padmore, though. I don't know the Dowland disc you mention, but his Handel arias recording ("As steals the morn") is full of excellent, limpid, unaffected singing - not least in the gorgeous (and wonderfully sung) eponymous duet.

[Sir Velo]

Martyn Hill the perfect Dowland tenor for me (on the Consort of Musicke complete JD). There's something completely natural, open and unaffected about his voice, completely lacking the veneer of self-consciousness and preciousness which seems to afflict certain English tenors.

Knowing and enjoying Hill's traversal (with Stephen Varcoe) of Finzi's songs, I shall investigate further with interest. Thanks.

[Richard Tarleton]

Yes, Martyn Hill's "Now, o now I needs must part" is possibly the single best Dowland song recording I know, largely for the reasons you suggest.

Indeed.

I don't entirely agree with you about Mark Padmore, though. I don't know the Dowland disc you mention, but his Handel arias recording ("As steals the morn") is full of excellent, limpid, unaffected singing - not least in the gorgeous (and wonderfully sung) eponymous duet.

I have him (and heard him live) doing Bach cantatas with JEG, which was lovely.

[Stanfordian]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07gnhw9

Brilliantly talented ensemble performs / sings some of my favourite music - partic the Britten
BUT
I cannot make myself listen.
BECAUSE
I really cannot abide the voice of the solo tenor. I have tried, I have tried so hard over many years, but.........

How is it that one person can revere and another cannot abide the same artist?
Same sounds presumably, fine music, fine brain of artist working the music, but...............

I see the names Renee Fleming, Placido Domingo for example, and for me, that is when I turn off.

Physiologically / emotionally why do people react so differently to the same voice?

Hiya DracoM,

I mentioned this earlier that I too find Bostridge's voice challenging. It is strange how we can baulk at certain performers who are generally much admired. For example the playing of Leif Ove Andsnes leaves me cold. On the other hand at one time I had difficulty listening to Bryn Tefel's voice but now I love his voice and have attended one of his Gala concerts.

[gradus]

LOA played a week or two after Steven Osborne at Snape a couple of years back which is when I discovered that whatever LOA's pianistic merits he cast no light at all on Chopin and imv had an unengaged aloof platform manner, glad to get it over with. Mr Osborne, on the other hand is easy to love and his recital Schumann, Debussy and Ravel switched me on big time.
I believe that LOA's recordings of the Beethoven pf concs was well received but haven't heard them yet.
Re Mr Bostridge, I can understand why he irritates some but I rather like his very precise rather bloodless singing. Bryn Terfel - now you're talking!