Haydn’s The Seasons; Gabrieli Consort and Players Radio3 in Concert Monday 20th

[Pulcinella]

It is however what Haydn set... "improving" the poetry is a bit like saying Haydn "would have preferred" valved trumpets, metal-wound strings etc. which nobody sensible would attempt to assert.

But aren't we only improving the English version?
Did Haydn really make his setting with van Swieten's English version in mind as well as the German? Perhaps he did.

[Bryn]

It is however what Haydn set... "improving" the poetry is a bit like saying Haydn "would have preferred" valved trumpets, metal-wound strings etc. which nobody sensible would attempt to assert.

Surely he would have concentrated on the musical setting of the text in his own native tongue, that of the English back-translation being very much a secondary concern.

[jean]

The libretto for The Seasons was prepared for Haydn, just as with The Creation, by Baron Gottfried van Swieten...Van Swieten's libretto was based on extracts from the long English poem "The Seasons" by James Thomson (1700–1748), which had been published in 1730.

Whereas in The Creation Swieten was able to limit himself to rendering an existing (anonymous) libretto into German, for The Seasons he had a much more demanding task. Olleson writes, "Even when Thomson's images were retained, they required abbreviation and adaptation to such an extent that usually no more than faint echoes of them can be discerned, and the libretto often loses all touch with the poem which was its starting point. Increasingly during the course of the oratorio, the words are essentially van Swieten's own or even imported from foreign sources."

Like The Creation, The Seasons was intended as a bilingual work. Since Haydn was very popular in England (particularly following his visits there in 1791–1792 and 1794–1795), he wished the work to be performable in English as well as German. Van Swieten therefore made a translation of his libretto back into English, fitting it to the rhythm of the music. Olleson notes that it is "fairly rare" that the translated version actually matches the Thomson original. Van Swieten's command of English was not perfect, and the English text he created has not always proven satisfying to listeners; for example, one critic writes, "Clinging to [the] retranslation, however, is the heavy-handed imagery of Haydn's sincere, if officious, patron. Gone is the bloom of Thomson's original." Olleson calls the English text "often grotesque", and suggests that English-speaking choruses should perform the work in German: "The Seasons is better served by the decent obscurity of a foreign language than by the English of the first version."

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Olleson calls the English text "often grotesque", and suggests that English-speaking choruses should perform the work in German: "The Seasons is better served by the decent obscurity of a foreign language than by the English of the first version."

Exactly my feeling.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The original on which it was based wasn't that great.

Is the German version an improvement?

[jean]

Nobody knows, because mostly they can't understand it.

[BBMmk2]

I quite enjoyed the performance last evening, and I must see this translation as well. I think it must be my love of history, is why I like the way Paul Mcreesh reconstructs events of the past.

[Richard Barrett]

Nobody knows, because mostly they can't understand it.

German speakers can understand it quite well, and in answer to the question no, it isn't much good in German either, and I believe Haydn found it hard going too.

[Old Grumpy]

I quite enjoyed the performance last evening, and I must see this translation as well. I think it must be my love of history, is why I like the way Paul Mcreesh reconstructs events of the past.

Glad I'm not the only one who enjoyed this performance! I too like McCreesh's reconstructions. His disc of Missa Salisburgensis by Biber is one of my favourites.

OG

[BBMmk2]

Absolutely, OG! I always think with these matters, if your view is different, then it all good for a great discussion.

[jean]

German speakers can understand it quite well...

But most Englisgh people aren't.

For them, the German text is shrouded in the decent obscurity of a learned - I mean foreign - language.

[Bryn]

Glad I'm not the only one who enjoyed this performance! I too like McCreesh's reconstructions. His disc of Missa Salisburgensis by Biber is one of my favourites.

OG

Loved the 'hunting' horns, reminiscent of Les Deboucher de Paris, and indeed of the massed horns of Le Concert Spirituel/Niquet in Handel's pièces d'occasion.. Hope they did not lead to too much tension in the Halstead household.

[Pulcinella]

In his Essay in Musical Analysis on The Seasons, Tovey says this:

As in my analysis of The Creation I quoted Milton in preference to the obligatory Mongrelian of the English libretto, so here I shall quote Thomson whenever I can substitute him for a lingo that has not yet had the advantage of drastic re-writing by musical editors of the Oxford University Press.

He also mentions that the ancient French horn tunes in Autumn were 'used by Méhul in his overture to La Chasse du Jeune Henri, a very pretty piece which was once popular and may as well become popular again'. I have posted on another thread (can't remember which and when) that this overture was very popular with our college orchestra and audience, in the early 1970s.

It is perhaps significant too that The Seasons is one of relatively few pieces of vocal music (as he calls his volume) chosen for analysis by Tovey: for Handel, he writes only about Israel in Egypt, for example, not Messiah.

[Bryn]

Spurred on by his McCreesh even, I decided it was long overdue that I got a HIPP recordiing of Die JahrenSzeiten, and opted for the Freiberger Barock/Jacobs CDs. At £6.41 including p&p of a "Used - Very Good" set, how could I resist? It arrived today and does not disappoint.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Spurred on by his McCreesh even, I decided it was long overdue that I got a HIPP recordiing of Die JahrenSzeiten, and opted for the Freiberger Barock/Jacobs CDs. At £6.41 including p&p of a "Used - Very Good" set, how could I resist? It arrived today and does not disappoint.