Messiah, John Butt & Dunedin Consort

[vinteuil]

When I asked this same question over forty years ago, I was informed that Handel would have regarded as blasphemy any suggestion that the work itself was "The Messiah"; that the definite article could only refer to the person of Christ himself (or "Himself", according to taste).

Bach and Schubert did not call those works "The B minor Mass" or "The Unfinished Symphony", of course (although Schubert might very well have called his work "The B minor Symphony"). A closer parallel is with Wagner's Gotterdammerung or Leoncavello's Pagliacci.

... thank you, helpful.

Of course Wagner's Götterdämmerung is known in some quarters as The Twilight of the Gods

I am not sure I understand Handel's point about blasphemy. 'Messiah-ness' was an attribute of Jesus, he was supremely the Anointed One, in contradistinction to any other kings etc who had been anointed, so Jesus the Messiah. I can't see that Handel's titling his work 'The Messiah' would in any way have been blasphemous. Perhaps some of our more theologically-trained colleagues could help?





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[Richard Barrett]

Fred Bloggs's Messiah

You may laugh but it's a scandalously neglected work which urgently deserves a Proms performance.

[mercia]

I can see my argument has no foundation. One could just as easily say "last week we performed Messiah" with no loss of understanding. Not sure one could say "last week we performed Unfinished Symphony" though. I'll shut up now

[Nick Armstrong]

I can't see that Handel's titling his work 'The Messiah' would in any way have been blasphemous.

Perhaps some of our more theologically-trained colleagues could help?

Certainly

[underthecountertenor]

And this popular beat combo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_The

now known simply as .

[jean]

When I asked this same question over forty years ago, I was informed that Handel would have regarded as blasphemy any suggestion that the work itself was "The Messiah"; that the definite article could only refer to the person of Christ himself (or "Himself", according to taste).

What evidence were you given for this?

(I think I've heard it too, but I can't remember what the reasoning was.)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

What evidence were you given for this?

It was a RE teacher at my school. Twelve-year-olds weren't encouraged to ask such luminaries for evidence in those days; in fact there were quite "sharp" discouragements!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

'Welcome to this performance of THE Messiah from Sage, Gateshead, given by THE John THE Butt and Dunedin THE Consort' (I expect).

I shall continue to call it THE Sage until another Sage is built in Hove, or Salford, or any other town with an inferiority complex.

[vinteuil]

It was a RE teacher at my school. Twelve-year-olds weren't encouraged to ask such luminaries for evidence in those days; in fact there were quite "sharp" discouragements!

... and it is on Such that you rely as Authority to diss my innocent Query?!!!

[jean]

Such is the respect of the British for Authority.

[vinteuil]

.

... ah, but wherein lies Authority?

My only 'saint' is - Pierre Bayle, who doubted everything...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bayle

.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/bayle/

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... and it is on Such that you rely as Authority to diss my innocent Query?!!!

??? Where's the "diss" in dis:

When I asked this same question over forty years ago, I was informed that Handel would have regarded as blasphemy any suggestion that the work itself was "The Messiah"; that the definite article could only refer to the person of Christ himself (or "Himself", according to taste).

Bach and Schubert did not call those works "The B minor Mass" or "The Unfinished Symphony", of course (although Schubert might very well have called his work "The B minor Symphony"). A closer parallel is with Wagner's Gotterdammerung or Leoncavello's Pagliacci.

?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Such is the respect of the British for Authority.

Well - at that time and at that age. Once the hormones gave me a good kicking, I was never again so accepting. As may have been noticed ...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

My only 'saint' is - Pierre Bayle, who doubted everything...

You sure?

[vinteuil]

.

... so - are we any clearer as to whether, and if so why, it might be 'wrong' to call Handel's work 'the "Messiah" ' - or even "The Messiah" ???


[ ... those who claim to have 'bugbears'* about this - now's yr chance to expatiate... ]



*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugbear

- lookin' at you, fferney!




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