R3 Live in Concert 5/5/16 - RLPO/Manze in Vaughan Williams

[Colonel Danby]

I'm listening to RWV's wonderful 'Pastoral' on the Third as I write, but surely it should be a soprano solo in the final movement rather than a tenor, that things go on despite the terrors of senseless war... did Ralph actually give his permission for this version, or was it Manze's own idea?

Or just a clarinet?

[EdgeleyRob]

I'm listening to RWV's wonderful 'Pastoral' on the Third as I write, but surely it should be a soprano solo in the final movement rather than a tenor, that things go on despite the terrors of senseless war... did Ralph actually give his permission for this version, or was it Manze's own idea?

Or just a clarinet?

Clarinet after all.
Yes he did,soprano,tenor or clarinet can be used.
I think it worked quite well,but no substitute for a human voice IMO,you don't get that 'life goes on' impression.
Pity about the ground opening up moment for the trumpet player,and the announcer being cut off in his prime, but a wonderful concert.
Manze is the RVW man of our time.

[Tony Halstead]

I'm listening to RWV's wonderful 'Pastoral' on the Third as I write, but surely it should be a soprano solo in the final movement rather than a tenor, that things go on despite the terrors of senseless war... did Ralph actually give his permission for this version, or was it Manze's own idea?

Or just a clarinet?

the Third

I like that!

I mean, the recollection that 'Radio Three' was once ( Oh Joy) 'The Third Programme'!

[Tony Halstead]

Clarinet after all.
Yes he did,soprano,tenor or clarinet can be used.
I think it worked quite well,but no substitute for a human voice IMO,you don't get that 'life goes on' impression.
Pity about the ground opening up moment for the trumpet player,and the announcer being cut off in his prime, but a wonderful concert.
Manze is the RVW man of our time.

I am not blaming Mr Manze for this, but the opening few bars with those undulating triads that constantly 'keep you guessing' as to whether the next one will be 'Major or Minor' came over as quite 'matter of fact' or 'in yer face' at a solid 'mezzoforte' lacking any mystery. I assume that the BBC sound engineers were trying to find an appropriate decibel level, and they soon did find it.
The playing of the Principal horn player, Tim Jackson, was superb throughout the entire concert and he should have been given a credit IMHO.

[Flosshilde]

the announcer being cut off in his prime,

Yes, especially it was just after he said something like "the human voice isn't heard .."

Another concert to be caught up with on iPlayer.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

I assume that the BBC sound engineers were trying to find an appropriate decibel level, and they soon did find it.

Wouldn't they have found the appropriate level during the general rehearsal on the day?

[Simon B]

I turned up still expecting the original billing for the concert - my own fault for not paying more attention. This was for the superb Allan Clayton to sing in both Linden Lea and the Pastoral, repeating his memorable performance with Manze/BBCSSO at the Proms a few years ago https://web.archive.org/web/20150804...-fantasia.html.

Evidently, at some point he was substituted by Andrew Staples who was subsequently indisposed. It didn't really make a lot of sense to have a soloist turn up just for the brief Linden Lea and then go home, but presumably this was making the best of things at short notice. The clarinet, while sanctioned by RVW (and beautifully played) is inordinately less affecting IMO.

Given that the Pastoral is one of the more rarely played RVW symphonies it's a bit of a coincidence that it was played (exquisitely) as recently as 28th April by Elder/LSO and Soprano Louise Alder (who was stepping in at short notice for Elizabeth Watts - fragile bunch these singers). Meanwhile, last night Wilson/CBSO were playing RVW 5 at the same time as the concert in Liverpool... As far as I can see, the next live RVW symphony with a major orchestra is the 9th in Jan/17 - LPO/Jurowksi. Such is the random nature of these things!

[Cockney Sparrow]

Allan Clayton - a wonderful Gerontius at the Barbican (LSO, ELder) a fortnight ago. Really, pretty much perfect (by my criteria). True Mozart singer style - eloquent diction, wonderful singing ppp, all the points of challenge fully met, the power to rise to the full orchestra passages. I've found my Gerontius of the moment, (and hoping that Allan doesn't overdo it e.g.taking on the roles which will move his voice away from the purity and lyricism he possesses). Worth turning out for, as you say - he delivered a similarly perfect performance in the War Requiem in November 2013 (RAH) .

[Simon B]

Allan Clayton - a wonderful Gerontius at the Barbican (LSO, ELder) a fortnight ago.

Yes, this (the LSO/Elder Gerontius) is in my top 2 (from among... far too many to admit) concerts around the country of the 15/16 season. Clayton's Gerontius was remarkable, but the contributions of all else involved were at the highest level, particularly those from Gerald Finley. Recently (and seemingly coincident with the ending of the Gergiev era) the LSO seem to have audibly reasserted their status as top dog among the UK orchestras after a rather variable patch, and it showed here in a potent combination of refinement and power. Drifting off-topic however...

[BBMmk2]

I rather liked the way Manze conducted RVW at the Proms, not so long ago. Will definitely be catching up on this one.

These days, I do find the 4th Symphony rather awkward to listen too. I don't know why. Maybe the rather dissonant opening of the symphony or perhaps, in some ways, maybe too personal for me to listen too, now?

[Pabmusic]

I rather liked the way Manze conducted RVW at the Proms, not so long ago. Will definitely be catching up on this one.

These days, I do find the 4th Symphony rather awkward to listen too. I don't know why. Maybe the rather dissonant opening of the symphony or perhaps, in some ways, maybe too personal for me to listen too, now?

"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant" is the famous quote that Bernard Shore and Adrian Boult said RVW made to the BBC SO at the first performance.

[Bryn]

"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant" is the famous quote that Bernard Shore and Adrian Boult said RVW made to the BBC SO at the first performance.

Whereas I know that I like it but am not at all clear as to what it means.

[ahinton]

Whereas I know that I like it but am not at all clear as to what it means.

Indeed; along with the sixth and ninth symphonies and Serenade to Music, amongst his very best, I think. Did not VW also once answer some question as to what one of his symphonies was "about" by saying "35 minutes"? (I may have misremembered this and cannot seem to trace the reference now)...

[Richard Barrett]

It says something for the conservatism of British music in the first half of the twentieth century when "dissonance" (and the associated "it's what I mean" quote) is almost always mentioned in connection with RVW's 4th symphony - written after all of Berg, most of Varèse, a large part of Schoenberg, not to mention the Rite of Spring, next to which it is a pretty tame piece of work whatever its fine qualities (which I have to say are somewhat opaque to me in comparison with nos. 3, 5 and 6).

[Pabmusic]

It says something for the conservatism of British music in the first half of the twentieth century when "dissonance" (and the associated "it's what I mean" quote) is almost always mentioned in connection with RVW's 4th symphony - written after all of Berg, most of Varèse, a large part of Schoenberg, not to mention the Rite of Spring, next to which it is a pretty tame piece of work whatever its fine qualities (which I have to say are somewhat opaque to me in comparison with nos. 3, 5 and 6).

I don't entirely agree. I doubt RVW was meaning just that he didn't like the "dissonance" - more the apparent anger and unconcernedness to produce 'likeable' tunes. (Michael Kennedy attributed it to his marriage to Adeline - 'imprisoned' with an ultra-hypochondriac.) Sibelius is surely a closer model than any of the (non-RVW-favourite) composers you mention. Sibelius wasn't 'conservative' in the 1920s and 30s - he represented a different stream. To regard it now as 'conservative' is to do so in the knowledge of what happened later, surely?