R3 Live in Concert 5/5/16 - RLPO/Manze in Vaughan Williams

[Richard Barrett]

unconcernedness to produce 'likeable' tunes

Exactly - something the composers I mentioned wouldn't have thought even worth mentioning, but something that clearly was an issue in RVW's milieu, that is to say the conservative British music scene during that period, to the point where even a fairly timid kind of "modernism" such as can be heard in his 4th Symphony is (still!) thought worthy of comment.

[BBMmk2]

I watched a tv programme about RVW and in it,I think it's more to do with RVW's personal life at the time. His wife's illness and how this affected RVW himself....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Michael Kennedy attributed it to his marriage to Adeline - 'imprisoned' with an ultra-hypochondriac.

I think it's terribly disappointing when a writer of Kennedy's (normally) scrupulous attention to accuracy and detail resorts to such mysogynistic clichés. I do not know what his medical basis for such a damning summary was, or which medical professionals he consulted, but Adele's very real and long-term illness would receive greater sensitivity from more recent studies into psychosomatic disabilities. Quite apart from staining his reputation, did Kennedy not realize that such a dismissal reflects poorly not merely on Adele, but on the composer? From a generous human being who devoted much of his efforts to caring for his wife, RVW simply becomes a "hen-pecked husband".

Not quite sure what this has to do with the Fourth Symphony - the fury of which (as witnessed in his own remarkable recording of the work) and the despair (the second movement - which I think is the most fascinating in the work) can equally - and with greater understanding (of a different sort to that meant elsewhere in this context) - be "attributed" to the agony of watching somebody he deeply cared for and about slowly deteriorating in health with no realistic prospect of any recovery.

[Richard Barrett]

"attributed"

That's another weird thing - the seeming compulsion to "attribute" a fairly mild bit of dissonance to events in a composer's private life. It's the mildness and its cultural context I was commenting on, not RVW's relationship to his first wife, which I knew nothing about and still don't see as relevant.

[EdgeleyRob]

"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant" is the famous quote that Bernard Shore and Adrian Boult said RVW made to the BBC SO at the first performance.

He also said "I wrote it not as a definite picture of anything external – eg the state of Europe – but simply because it occurred to me like this…It is what I wanted to do at the time."

Didn't Walton hail the 4th as 'the greatest symphony since Beethoven'?

I have thoughts about what the symphony means,too embarassed really to try to put into words though.
The opening is a sort of rage against something that you can't seem to do anything to change,maybe like the onset of a period of depression,yet the opening of the finale seems to banish the Black Dog,the music in between.....well

I believe the chord that opens the symphony is the same one,in a different key,as that opens the finale of Beethoven 9,is that correct ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I believe the chord that opens the symphony is the same one,in a different key,as that opens the finale of Beethoven 9,is that correct ?

No. The RVW begins with a bare minor ninth (C - Db) which falls to a bare octave, then moves to a bare major seventh (Db - C; the outer notes swapping places).

The Finale of the Beethoven begins with a d minor triad (D - F - A) with an added (minor) sixth (Bb). The semitone clash A/Bb is what might suggest a similarity with the RVW.

(The Walton quotation I'd not heard before - the only "source" I can find is WIKI, and that doesn't say where Walton is supposed to have said this. Anyone else know about this?)

[EdgeleyRob]

No. The RVW begins with a bare minor ninth (C - Db) which falls to a bare octave, then moves to a bare major seventh (Db - C; the outer notes swapping places).

The Finale of the Beethoven begins with a d minor triad (D - F - A) with an added (minor) sixth (Bb). The semitone clash A/Bb is what might suggest a similarity with the RVW.

(The Walton quotation I'd not heard before - the only "source" I can find is WIKI, and that doesn't say where Walton is supposed to have said this. Anyone else know about this?)

Thanks ferney,I thought I'd read about both the Beethoven chord and Walton quote,maybe in old RVW Society journals.
I'll try to dig them out.

[Beef Oven!]

It says something for the conservatism of British music in the first half of the twentieth century when "dissonance" (and the associated "it's what I mean" quote) is almost always mentioned in connection with RVW's 4th symphony - written after all of Berg, most of Varèse, a large part of Schoenberg, not to mention the Rite of Spring, next to which it is a pretty tame piece of work whatever its fine qualities (which I have to say are somewhat opaque to me in comparison with nos. 3, 5 and 6).

And not to mention that by the time RVW had completed the fourth, Anton Webern had completed all his non-opus works, all his arrangements and 26 of his 31 Opus-numbered works.

Regarding Pabs' mention of Sibelius, maybe JS and RVW were working in 'different streams'. So perhaps it's about the benefit of lateral-sight rather than hindsight.

But the conversation was about Ralph, not Jean anyway!

[Daniel]

These days, I do find the 4th Symphony rather awkward to listen too. I don't know why. Maybe the rather dissonant opening of the symphony or perhaps, in some ways, maybe too personal for me to listen too, now?

I remember first hearing the 4th symphony many years ago and finding it sort of annoying, it just seemed much ado about nothing. I think sometimes VW's use of modes seems to press an off switch in me. It doesn't annoy me now, but it doesn't mean much to me either (... I don't think, though I haven't heard it for a long time and to be honest have forgotten most of it, though not the discussed opening).
The Pastoral on the other hand means a great deal to me, and seems to flow effortlessly and hauntingly through my synapses. The 5th I like very much, and the 6th I find very engaging, completely alive, at times mesmerisingly extra-planetary, and altogether of a greater imaginative energy than many of its companions.

It so happens that events have recently prompted me to feel I want to have another go at the symphonies. There seemed to be a place in music that I sensed existed and that I wanted to know, and I thought it might be lurking in some of the VW symphonies in places I'd not previously been able to apprehend.

I'll certainly include that VW conducted version of the Fourth that ferney recommends.

[Nimrod]

For me, a work that's not titled and therefore could be considered abstract, such as the Fourth, is to be heard first and enjoyed for what it is. One can speculate till the cows come home on the whys and wherefores but I enjoy the music without trying to decide why V-W wrote it in that way. I've just played the 5th and one can only marvel at the contrast with its' predecessor; I could say that the third movement, in the hands of an understanding and thoughtful conductor, is a vision of heaven with the odd bit of hell knocking on the door! But V-W was agnostic, so was he thinking of - what? at the time of writing it; we will never know. So I just marvel its' beauty and admire its' composer for giving us such lovely music.

[BBMmk2]

For me, a work that's not titled and therefore could be considered abstract, such as the Fourth, is to be heard first and enjoyed for what it is. One can speculate till the cows come home on the whys and wherefores but I enjoy the music without trying to decide why V-W wrote it in that way. I've just played the 5th and one can only marvel at the contrast with its' predecessor; I could say that the third movement, in the hands of an understanding and thoughtful conductor, is a vision of heaven with the odd bit of hell knocking on the door! But V-W was agnostic, so was he thinking of - what? at the time of writing it; we will never know. So I just marvel its' beauty and admire its' composer for giving us such lovely music.

Thank you for that post, Nimrod. it's the music that we admire and not the reasoning behind it. Although in some ways, there are definitive in the writing that make the work, what it is.

[EdgeleyRob]

No. The RVW begins with a bare minor ninth (C - Db) which falls to a bare octave, then moves to a bare major seventh (Db - C; the outer notes swapping places).

The Finale of the Beethoven begins with a d minor triad (D - F - A) with an added (minor) sixth (Bb). The semitone clash A/Bb is what might suggest a similarity with the RVW.

(The Walton quotation I'd not heard before - the only "source" I can find is WIKI, and that doesn't say where Walton is supposed to have said this. Anyone else know about this?)

Hi ferney

It was at the 1st performance (10/04/35)

....Among the many notable figures present were Arnold Bax (the work’s dedicatee), Constant Lambert, Albert Coates, Hamilton Harty and William Walton, who, having attended the rehearsals, told his fellow composer Arthur Benjamin that they ‘were going to hear the greatest symphony since Beethoven’.

and apologies for the confusion re the Beethoven chord

Vaughan Williams himself later stated that the grinding minor ninth with which the symphony opens was ‘cribbed’ from the start of the finale of Beethoven’s Ninth, while Beethoven’s Fifth provided the template for the unforgettably expectant bridge passage between the Scherzo and finale.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The Fourth isn't "the best Symphony since Beethoven", though, is it? I don't think it's even RVW's best - I'm not far off Daniel's opinion; although I love the Fourth, it comes "below" the Fifth, Third, Ninth, Sixth or Seventh in my affections and admiration.

[Alison]

Hi ferney

It was at the 1st performance (10/04/35)

....Among the many notable figures present were Arnold Bax (the work’s dedicatee), Constant Lambert, Albert Coates, Hamilton Harty and William Walton, who, having attended the rehearsals, told his fellow composer Arthur Benjamin that they ‘were going to hear the greatest symphony since Beethoven’.

and apologies for the confusion re the Beethoven chord

Vaughan Williams himself later stated that the grinding minor ninth with which the symphony opens was ‘cribbed’ from the start of the finale of Beethoven’s Ninth, while Beethoven’s Fifth provided the template for the unforgettably expectant bridge passage between the Scherzo and finale.

Very interesting stuff Edge. Come to think of it, I've never really read much about Sir William's musical likes/dislikes.
I don't imagine him as a Mahlerian or Straussian somehow. Perhaps there were aspects of the Fourth he wished he'd written himself.

[EdgeleyRob]

The Fourth isn't "the best Symphony since Beethoven", though, is it? I don't think it's even RVW's best - I'm not far off Daniel's opinion; although I love the Fourth, it comes "below" the Fifth, Third, Ninth, Sixth or Seventh in my affections and admiration.

9,3,5,7,6,4,2,8,1 today anyway,but 9 always the best.