Elgar Symphony No 1

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Oh, definitely NOT Elder's asthmatic, zimmerframed trudge through the Second as heard at last year's Proms.

Host translation:

Personally speaking, I found Sir Mark's conducting of the Second Symphony with the NYOGB at last year's Proms rather lacking in the sense of impetus and momentum that I think the work needs to hold its own in the panoply of Great Symphonies. I found this surprising as well as disappointing, as the performance he led of The Kingdom the year before was quite exemplary and magnificent.

[Pulcinella]

I don't know - certainly the AQA Exam Board thought the opposite; the First Symphony was an "A"-level "set text".

After Annie O Warburton's time then, though she covered only O-level set works, I think!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

After Annie O Warburton's time then, though she covered only O-level set works, I think!

We used to call our A-level music teacher "Annie" after her more famous contemporary. Both made the learning of harmony particularly uninteresting.

[Maclintick]

I would be genuinely interested to hear what might be specifically "Edwardian" features of this, or any, Music - but whilst I can hear the fragmentary, momentarily sunny, wistful mood alternates with descending minor key phrases — hope & uncertainty mingling, and the the shadowy passage after fig.24 in the 1st movement — chromatically shifting harmonies undermining the spirit of delight, or the drifting irresolution in the places you identify, I hear these types of passages in many works of Elgar's continental contemporaries (not just Mahler and Strauss, but Suk and Schönberg, too).

Fair point. Having been nutmegged by some deft passing between your good self & Ahinton I’’ll now stop digging & concede that my proposition vis-a-vis a supposed “Edwardian sensibility” permeating Elgar’s symphonies is holed below the waterline — if I may be allowed to mix footballing and nautical metaphors (Teamsaint I’m sure won’t mind ! )— at least in terms of a neatly demonstrable correlation between dots on the page and any insecurity the composer may or may not have felt regarding his place in society. Mention of Schmidt in particular, Ferney, allows me to undermine my case still further when considering affinities between the Austrian’s 2nd Symphony 1st movt. and corresponding passages in Elgar 2 - explored on FoR3 following the VPO’s performance of the Schmidt symphony in last year’s Proms.

These symphonies are in Eb, which is incidental & not really germane to the comparison, but both commence with optimistic & purposeful statements, fanfare-like flourishes in the Schmidt & “Spirit of Delight” in Elgar 2, generating powerful climaxes & winding down into uncannily similar passages of shadowy chromaticism ( after fig.24 in EE2, & in Schmidt 2 the “Ruhiger” section starting with a slinky clarinet phrase one bar before fig. 3 ). Gradually, shafts of sunlight re-emerge through the mist, the 2 elements contending for the remainder of their respective movements, with Elgar romping to the finishing-line in splendiferous mode, & Schmidt doing likewise, closing in the major, but with a prophetic sting-in-the-tail, anticipating the symphony’s denouement.

Here, Elgar sits stylistically in the same camp as his Viennese contemporary, firmly in the mainstream of the Late Romantic Austro-German tradition post-Wagner, post-Brahms, & in Schmidt’s case, Bruckner. On further reflection, I tend to agree with Ahinton that there’s nothing quintessentially “English” in EE’s personality, since in reality his musical antecedents are as Teutonic as those of the House of Windsor ! In fact, I’m now at a loss to discern any identifiably English characteristics in his music at all. Perhaps those who do are completely bamboozled by outward appearance, regal dedications & titles, “Spirit of England”, “Banner of St George” et al ? In the end of course, it doesn’t really matter. Elgar is a great international composer, whose stature isn’t reliant on anything more than the notes on the page.

As an aside, I think we now attach too much significance to composers’ lives, as opposed to those dots, & that the revelations of contemporary researchers are as much a curse as a blessing.While a teenager I happily wallowed in Mahler 6, Elgar 2, Walton 1 & Shostakovich 10 in blissful ignorance of Almschli, Windflower, Imma & Elmira, & in fact when I did read about Alma & poor Gustav it rather put me off GM6, as what had seemed ardent & lyrical, now took on mawkish, self-pitying overtones. Shakespeare is lucky in this regard, in leaving no traces of the dirt in which modern academics can dig.


As someone once said, “I’ll now get me coat”….

[Petrushka]

There's one aspect of the Elgar 1 that doesn't receive the attention it deserves: the remarkable sense of thematic unity. The motto theme is of course well known and its appearances fairly obvious but I'd go much further and say that every single scrap and wisp of melody in the entire symphony can be traced back in some way to this motto theme. Has anyone carried out a detailed thematic analysis of the work?

There are clear enough variations of the motto, as in the finale's opening 'stalking' theme which later receives a glorious transformation, but I think it's everywhere even in tiny accompanying figures hidden in the texture and places where fragments are possibly played upside down or in reverse. It makes for a fascinating listen trying to spot new ones.

I'm no musicologist (I can't even play an instrument) but I've never read of this aspect of the work in the extensive literature unless I've missed it.

Elgar does seem to have had a lot of fun with this!

[Maclintick]

There's one aspect of the Elgar 1 that doesn't receive the attention it deserves: the remarkable sense of thematic unity. The motto theme is of course well known and its appearances fairly obvious but I'd go much further and say that every single scrap and wisp of melody in the entire symphony can be traced back in some way to this motto theme. Has anyone carried out a detailed thematic analysis of the work?

Elgar does seem to have had a lot of fun with this!

Now you mention it, the "motto", the 1st movt 2nd subject in the minor, the opening motif of the scherzo, the main theme of the adagio, AND that of the finale all share discernable thematic kinship. Surely there must be a post-doctoral thesis lying about in some Mid-Western institution which proves the point ? Incidentally, Michael Kennedy seemed to prefer the term "idee fixe" to that of motto theme, for some reason, but for the life of me I am unable to grasp any difference in meaning betwixt the 2....

[ardcarp]

We used to call our A-level music teacher "Annie" after her more famous contemporary. Both made the learning of harmony particularly uninteresting.

Mrs A. would beg to differ. She was taught by (the elderly) Annie O. Warburton...the real one!

[EdgeleyRob]

Well, I wouldn't wish to upset the originator of the Thread with Off Topic comments, but seeing that you ask ...

I think the Second Symphony is an even better achievement than the First - the composer's finest achievement, and (with RVW #5) the greatest Symphony by a British composer that I know. The outer movements of the First I find more "episodic", requiring much help from the conductor to steer successfully through the sections without losing the momentum (mind you, when Barbirolli did it it showed that this reservation doesn't necessarily apply) - the Second is a perfect Symphonic structure, the thematic ideas merging into and out of each other with a great "sweep" and such passion and intensity. (Mind you, when certain conductors do it, it shows that this enthusiasm doesn't apply!)

All of which is just "longhand" for saying that I find the Second affects me more deeply than does the First - rejoice, though I do, that that work exists.

Same here,if only allowed one it have to be the 2nd.
Plenty more Nobilmente,especially appropriate I think in that 3rd subject in the 'funeral march'.
Con Dignita,which you mentioned in relation to the opening of the 1st Symphony,I believe is how the opening of the Finale should be played (I've never seen a score though).
The reflective,sorrowful passages get into my soul and brain and won't go away for ages when I listen.
I'm sure I read somewhere that the Finale,according to Elgar,should 'banish and enoble'(or words to that effect)the sorrow from the earlier movements but it doesn't always work for me.

Anyway,Mackerras is underrated in this work IMO.

I'm starting to go on again.........have we ever had a favourite British Symphony thread....I might start one

[Petrushka]

Now you mention it, the "motto", the 1st movt 2nd subject in the minor, the opening motif of the scherzo, the main theme of the adagio, AND that of the finale all share discernable thematic kinship.

I think the finale is where it's most obvious. The opening theme is itself a variant of the motto but the scraps of this variant are absolutely everywhere in the finale where there must be dozens of appearances before the motto itself reappears in full orchestral splendour. It's Elgar giving us one of his japes!

[ardcarp]

There's one aspect of the Elgar 1 that doesn't receive the attention it deserves: the remarkable sense of thematic unity. The motto theme is of course well known and its appearances fairly obvious but I'd go much further and say that every single scrap and wisp of melody in the entire symphony can be traced back in some way to this motto theme.

See my post #1

Has anyone carried out a detailed thematic analysis of the work?

Quite a few people, I guess! I agree wholeheartedly that the theme in all sorts of guises pervades the whole symphony.

[Simon B]

Host translation:

Personally speaking, I found Sir Mark's conducting of the Second Symphony with the NYOGB at last year's Proms rather lacking in the sense of impetus and momentum that I think the work needs to hold its own in the panoply of Great Symphonies. I found this surprising as well as disappointing, as the performance he led of The Kingdom the year before was quite exemplary and magnificent.

A pedant (quite possibly one who is missing the intentional nature of the infelicities to boot) writes:

It was the Hallé wot played Elgar 2 last year - though you're right about the lack of thrust . It was A Davis wot conducted The Kingdom in 2014 - also rendered rather... dry IMO... by lack of thrust/drama. Ironically it was Elder who made a much more engaging job of it in previous performances elsewhere with the Hallé and LSO. It was The Apostles wot Elder conducted at the Proms recently - and made about as good a case for it as anyone could IMV.

As you were...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You are quite correct ... it was Elder's Apostles that I found admirable; and I'd muddled his dredge through the Elgar #2 with his similarly lacklustre Mahler #9 with the NYOGB.

(I'm still wearing my Host "L"-plates.)

[EdgeleyRob]

See my post #1




Quite a few people, I guess! I agree wholeheartedly that the theme in all sorts of guises pervades the whole symphony.

The same applies,I think, to the 'Spirit of Delight' motto in the 2nd Symphony

[Barbirollians]

You are quite correct ... it was Elder's Apostles that I found admirable; and I'd muddled his dredge through the Elgar #2 with his similarly lacklustre Mahler #9 with the NYOGB.

(I'm still wearing my Host "L"-plates.)

It is surprising - I heard a fine Elgar 2 from the Halle/Elder in Sheffield a few years back and I like their recording albeit I could do without Sir Mark reading spirit of delight etc .

[Pulcinella]

The Staatskapelle Berlin/Barenboim recording (of number 1) is Gramophone's Recording of the month (May 2016 issue).