Elgar Symphony No 1

[MrGongGong]

It's almost like the Beatles and The Rolling Stones never happened.

Never heard of them

[MrGongGong]

Back on topic, I struggle a bit with Elgar's symphonies,

It really is quite simple matey
The symphonies are brilliant
but why oh why oh why........... (you know the rest)

[Beef Oven!]

Never heard of them

You Elgar enthusiasts are incorrigible!

[Beef Oven!]

I sympathise, in the sense that the Elgar symphonies are constricted by an Edwardian sensibility that's not easy to identify with nowadays, in a way that other magnificent works of his that you've already alluded to aren't -- Intro & Allegro, Enigma, In The South. If the symphonies are to be performed in this century, they need the sort of committed advocacy that Sakari Oramo provided last night, or Solti, among conductors of a previous generation.BTW, Elgar 1 & 2 are works that I love unreservedly, but I recognise that their zeitgeist is problematic for many of the current generation.

Yes, I think that explains a lot.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You were there in Kings Lynn in 1970 - Sir John's last performance of the work? A privilege indeed.

- hearing Barbirolli in Elgar #1 at any time (and I raise a glass unconstricted by Edwardian sensitivities to your truant disposition, Alpie - great story!) would have been a treasurable experience, but that King's Lynn performance is particularly breath-taking. I remember first hearing it on Radio3 about twenty years ago; I missed the opening bars, so didn't know who the performers were, but thought "Oh! Elgar #1 - I'll stay with this." Within seconds I couldn't move, so transfixing did I find the performance - "couldn't move"? The blazes! I don't think I breathed for the next 3/4 of an hour. Some years later, it was broadcast again - I almost didn't dare listen, just in case the real thing wasn't as good as memory: it was - exactly the same transfixing experience.

I know of no other recording that both supports and defeats Hornspieler's suggestions about Recording vs Live on another Thread: this Live performance has an intensity that no studio recording (and there are dozens of excellent ones) gets close to - but without the recording, we wouldn't be able to experience it now.



Actually, Alpie, you might be able to assist me here: as a Host, when I read "constricted by Edwardian sensibilities" or some such, am I allowed to post "Bollocks" in response, or should I just stick to "Codswallop"?

[Hornspieler]

In my first term at the Royal Academy of Music, I found my name listed in the 1st orchestra, conducted by Dr Clarence Raybould.

The programme set for rehearsal (sightreading in my case) was an all British Line Up.

"The Forgotten Rite" - John Ireland
Oriental Fantasy "Beni Mora" - Gustav Holst
and
Symphony Nº 1 in A flat - Sir Edward Elgar.

I did not encounter that symphony again until the beginning of Silvestri's reign with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra.

When the maestro's appointment was announced, he was interviewed by a journalist from Southern Television:

"Mister Silvestri, can we now expect to hear more music from Eastern Europe?"

"I like the British music."

"Anyone in particular?"

The maestro consulted his notes.

""Volton, (long pause) Vorgan Villams and Elgar."

"You mean Vaughan Williams?"

"I just said."

Well, his English may not have been so good, but when he took us along that magical journey through Elgar's 1st symphony, I for one, was astonished at what he found in the work, which Clarence Raybould had never touched upon in the thirteen weeks of my first term at the RAM.

I have our recording, taken from the live BBC broadcast and rescued by me when I was in Bristol as the tape was about to be scrapped on the orders of those who should have known better.

Silvestri went on to produce that fantastic recording of Alassio and also several works by Vaughan Williams and Sir William Walton, but he never touched upon Elgar's 2nd symphony and I think I can understand why.....

Symphony Nº 1 is the Malvern Hills, the hopes, the despairs of a musician fighting for recognition and at the same time seeking to explain his inner emotions to himself.

Symphony Nº 2 is the result of the success of Nº 1
(Well done, old chap. You must write another.) A very well-scored, professionally orchestrated and an indication of Elgar's interest in lighter things, like his "Wand of Youth" and his solid patriotism, as in his "Pomp and Circumstance" marches.

Compare it with Walton's 1st symphony. They are both autobiographical - in some ways a cry for help. Their second symphonies are professionally produced and wonderful in their own ways, but written for money, not self confession.

HS

I don't think that I've put my argument very well, but I can assure you: If I was told that I could only keep one of each composers' symphonies, it would be Nº 1 for both Elgar and Walton.

[cloughie]

I sympathise, in the sense that the Elgar symphonies are constricted by an Edwardian sensibility that's not easy to identify with nowadays, in a way that other magnificent works of his that you've already alluded to aren't -- Intro & Allegro, Enigma, In The South. If the symphonies are to be performed in this century, they need the sort of committed advocacy that Sakari Oramo provided last night, or Solti, among conductors of a previous generation.BTW, Elgar 1 & 2 are works that I love unreservedly, but I recognise that their zeitgeist is problematic for many of the current generation.

Are you talking about the current music listening generation, many of whom have difficulty with anything that has something resembling a tune or the current generation of conductors who seem to have no problem - in the same way that Silvestri embraced Elgar in the 60s there are others now eg Petrenko who do so now. Interesting that Barenboim has gone back to him and Elder nicely continues Barbirolli's championing of him with the Halle. Also in the last few years Sinaisky has done good performances with BBC orchestras.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Actually, Alpie, you might be able to assist me here: as a Host, when I read "constricted by Edwardian sensibilities" or some such, am I allowed to post "Bollocks" in response, or should I just stick to "Codswallop"?

I think you should stick to "Codswallop".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... the Elgar symphonies are constricted by an Edwardian sensibility that's not easy to identify with nowadays, in a way that other magnificent works of his that you've already alluded to aren't.

Codswallop.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Codswallop.

[cloughie]

Codswallop.

I was going to say the same but thought it impolite. But if it's OK for a host, then Codswallop.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

An unfair, knee-jerk (with possibly the emphasis on "jerk") reaction to Macl's post, which at least (with its use of "other") suggests that the two Symphonies are "magnificent" - with which opinion I agree. But what is "an Edwardian sensibility"? Where is this to be found in the Music? To what extent is this absent in the Music of Elgar's European contemporaries? And in what sense might such a criticism suggest that the listener's reaction is constrained by a neoElizabethan sensibility that a future Williamanian/neoGeorgean sensibility might look back upon and find quaint?

[Pabmusic]

An unfair, knee-jerk (with possibly the emphasis on "jerk") reaction to Macl's post, which at least (with its use of "other") suggests that the two Symphonies are "magnificent" - with which opinion I agree. But what is "an Edwardian sensibility"? Where is this to be found in the Music? To what extent is this absent in the Music of Elgar's European contemporaries? And in what sense might such a criticism suggest that the listener's reaction is constrained by a neoElizabethan sensibility that a future Williamanian/neoGeorgean sensibility might look back upon and find quaint?

Totally agree. I used to do this sort of thing - very generalised 'criticism' based on stereotypes until one day I realised that I was ... how do I say it? ... just ... wrong.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But what is "an Edwardian sensibility"? Where is this to be found in the Music? To what extent is this absent in the Music of Elgar's European contemporaries? And in what sense might such a criticism suggest that the listener's reaction is constrained by a neoElizabethan sensibility that a future Williamanian/neoGeorgean sensibility might look back upon and find quaint?

Elgar is often branded as "Edwardian", and this short era does embrace some of the composer's major works.
Edwardian works include Symphonies 1 & 2, the Violin Concerto, The Apostles, The Kingdom, Introduction & Allegro, Coronation Ode, etc.

However, the Victorian works include:
Serenade of Strings
Wand of Youth
Salut d'Amour
Chanson de Nuit/Chanson de Matin
From the Bavarian Highlands
Organ Sonata
Froissart
The Light of Life
The Black Knight
The Banner of St George
King Olaf
Caractacus
Enigma Variations
Sea Pictures
Cockaigne
The Dream of Gerontius
Pomp & Circumstance Marches 1 & 2 (maybe)

Then in the George V era:
Coronation March (trio in 3/4 time!)
The Crown of India
Falstaff
The Music Makers
Polonia
The Starlight Express
The Spirit of England
The Sanguine Fan
Violin Sonata
String Quartet
Piano Quintet
Cello Concerto
Severn Suite
Pageant of Empire
Nursery Suite
Arthur
Sketches for Symphony no. 3, Piano Concerto, The Spanish Lady, etc.

Edwardian works include Symphonies 1 & 2, the Violin Concerto, The Apostles, The Kingdom, Introduction & Allegro, Coronation Ode, etc.

[Keraulophone]

You were there in Kings Lynn in 1970 - Sir John's last performance of the work? A privilege indeed.

I have just read this astonishing piece of history in the Telegraph obituary of organist and choirmaster Martindale Sidwell, who had established the St Clement Dane's Choral Society after the post-war reopening of the rebuilt church. Sir John Barbirolli had agreed to become president of the choral society, having been a chorister at the church, "but had been turned out on the grounds that he was 'unmusical'".