Elgar Symphony No 1

[Pabmusic]

... Elgar deliberately excludes any distracting extra-musical narratives, having junked the “General Gordon’ theme in his original conception of the Ab...

The Gordon symphony was not the forerunner of the A-flat. An early idea became "Go forth in the name (etc)" from Gerontius. EE told Alfred Rofewald about the Gordon symphony in 1900, but he never wrote it. The A-flat was definitely nothing to do with it. In the event, ideas that occurred to EE after Rodewald's death in 1903 (or even before it - opening of Sym 2, last movt) were used in the second symphony. The A-flat symphony came later. the Scherzo-Adagio transition being from a string quartet sketch.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

“Edwardian sensibility” — a mixture of aspiration, an admirable & newly-graspable ambition, mixed with self-doubt & social queasyness, that seems to permeate the symphonies.[/FONT]

Where is this in the Symphonies? (And where is it "not" in the Enigmas and Concertos?)

[EdgeleyRob]

Ooh ... "proudly" is far worse than "nobly": perhaps "with dignity"? (Ma non "pomposo"?)

"Moving in its own good time, Nobly and Simply" (ie, don't tart it up, keep it moving and let it speak for itself; respect, man: don't diss!)

Again, you have it spot on. There's nothing wrong with 'nobly', given that it's all very personal Elgar.

Stately (as in a stately procession)?

Much as I like the Haitink performance, it is a little too stately and not sufficiently andante at the start, perhaps.
But it works, and that is perhaps an indication of a great piece of music: it can endure such differences of interpretation.

Nobilmente first occurs in Cockaigne. About the A-flat symphony, Elgar said that the 'motto' theme (Andante nobilmente e semplice) represented "great charity (love) and a massive hope in the future". It's about ecstasy rather than stateliness.

Thanks guys,I'm useless at putting this kind of stuff into words.
I like the word Nobilmente,it would suit some non-Elgar tunes too,for example the 2nd subject of VW's Wasps Overture.
I just think the theme we are talking about in the 1st Symphony suggests more than nobly,I don't know what the word is but ferney's 'with dignity' and Pabmusic's 'ecstacy' (but not Pulcinella's 'stately')are probably better than my 'proudly'.

[EdgeleyRob]

OO - er ! Excuse me while I don my tin hat & start back-pedalling. Bin working so unable to defend my comments until now. Beefy’s admission that he “struggled” with EE’s symphonies, chimed with reactions I’ve encountered among younger musicians & music-lovers who will rave about Enigma & the concertos. My suggestion that the symphonies are imbued with an “Edwardian sensibility” which some found difficult to grasp or alienating seems to have been viewed by some as (a) an attempt to wrest this great composer from his pedestal, rather as the Oxford students tried to do with Cecil Rhodes, and (b) that I was attempting to tar him with largely discredited accusations of jingoism & imperial glorification. Not so. But here goes my attempt to defend the “Edwardian sensibility” comment.


Firstly, there’s no question that EE remains his own man in all his works, in the sense of recognisable continuity of style & musical fingerprints in the symphonies & ,say, Enigma or Cockaigne, & the concertos. In the former the audience has a colourful narrative, & in the latter a soloist as intermediary & explicator to assist on their journey. Part of the greatness of the symphonies is that here Elgar deliberately excludes any distracting extra-musical narratives, having junked the “General Gordon’ theme in his original conception of the Ab, for instance, and faces us with his complex & contradictory personality, which is at once hugely aspirational - “ a massive hope for the future” , “heir to Brahms” - & simultaneously mired in self-doubt & his own personal neuroses.


By the mid-1900s Elgar was hugely successful, but his ascent as a composer was facilitated by assiduous social-mountaineering, the poor catholic musical genius from the sticks who marries the colonel’s daughter, grows a military moustache & plays the country squire as disguise. Here there’s an affinity with E.M. Forster’s character in “Howard’s End”, Leonard Bast. Forster was one of the most acute chroniclers of Edwardian England’s Belle Epoque, & he sees to it that Bast pays for his hubris in attempting to surmount social barriers. Like Bast, groomed by the arty & decidedly “continental” Schlegel sisters, Elgar enjoyed the patronage of German musical giants like Hans Richter, & the confidence of his friend & publisher August Jaeger, in a sphere where barriers to social and artistic advancement were slowly being challenged. Unlike the unfortunate Bast, Elgar triumphed, but his complicated relationship to this new social environment could be described as conforming to an “Edwardian sensibility” — a mixture of aspiration, an admirable & newly-graspable ambition, mixed with self-doubt & social queasyness, that seems to permeate the symphonies.

Sorry Mac,no need for a tin hat,promise.
In the Symphonies,and indeed all Elgar, I can hear aspiration,newly-graspable ambition but not self-doubt & social queasyness

[Hornspieler]

In my first term at the Royal Academy of Music, I found my name listed in the 1st orchestra, conducted by Dr Clarence Raybould.

The programme set for rehearsal (sightreading in my case) was an all British Line Up.

"The Forgotten Rite" - John Ireland
Oriental Fantasy "Beni Mora" - Gustav Holst
and
Symphony Nº 1 in A flat - Sir Edward Elgar.

I did not encounter that symphony again until the beginning of Silvestri's reign with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra.


Well, his English may not have been so good, but when he took us along that magical journey through Elgar's 1st symphony, I for one, was astonished at what he found in the work, which Clarence Raybould had never touched upon in the thirteen weeks of my first term at the RAM.

I have our recording, taken from the live BBC broadcast and rescued by me when I was in Bristol as the tape was about to be scrapped on the orders of those who should have known better[/COLOR]

Silvestri went on to produce that fantastic recording of Alassio and also several works by Vaughan Williams and Sir William Walton, but he never touched upon Elgar's 2nd symphony and I think I can understand why.....

Symphony Nº 1 is the Malvern Hills, the hopes, the despairs of a musician fighting for recognition and at the same time seeking to explain his inner emotions to himself.

Symphony Nº 2 is the result of the success of Nº 1
(Well done, old chap. You must write another.) A very well-scored, professionally orchestrated and an indication of Elgar's interest in lighter things, like his "Wand of Youth" and his solid patriotism, as in his "Pomp and Circumstance" marches.

Compare it with Walton's 1st symphony. They are both autobiographical - in some ways a cry for help. Their second symphonies are professionally produced and wonderful in their own ways, but written for money, not self confession.



I don't think that I've put my argument very well, but I can assure you: If I was told that I could only keep one of each composers' symphonies, it would be Nº 1 for both Elgar and Walton.

Hooray! I've found my copy of that broadcast recording which I was told to scrap but before doing so, I lifted The Cockaigne Overture and the First symphony onto my own tape recorder and subsequently onto a CD

So I believe that I now have the only copy in existence of Silvestri conducting Elgar's Symphony Nº 1 in A flat with The Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra.

It is a wonderful interpretation - all the more wonderful because it is not from a Sargent, or a Davis or a Boult - it is the interpretation of a Romanian exile who had never before encountered "British" compositions.

The problem is, that I have the only copy of this performance that exists.

I really would like others to hear this recording. How can I share it with you all? Suggestions please.

Note: There are no continuity announcements on my recording. They went into Room 101 with the rest of the BBC's tape.


BTW Where is edashtav? Still shown as a member but nothing heard from him for more than a year. He might very well have been present at that performance in the early 1960s.

[cloughie]

Hooray! I've found my copy of that broadcast recording which I was told to scrap but before doing so, I lifted The Cockaigne Overture and the First symphony onto my own tape recorder and subsequently onto a CD

So I believe that I now have the only copy in existence of Silvestri conducting Elgar's Symphony Nº 1 in A flat with The Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra.

It is a wonderful interpretation - all the more wonderful because it is not from a Sargent, or a Davis or a Boult - it is the interpretation of a Romamnian exile who had never before encountered "British£ comositions.

The problem is, that I have the only copy of this performance that exists.

I really would like others to hear this recording. How can I share it with you all? Suggestions please.

Note: There are no continuity announcements on my recording. They went into Room 101 with the rest of the BBC's tape.


BTW Where is edashtav? Still shown as a member but nothing heard from him for more than a year. He might very well have been present at that performance in the early 1960s.

I assume that this is then a different performance from the one on BBC Legends.

[Pulcinella]

I did put a question mark after my 'stately' suggestion!

That said, and notwithstanding all the erudite comments above (below if you reorder the thread!), for which many thanks, it's still how I think of the beginning of this wonderful work.

Michael Steinberg, in his book The Symphony, describes the opening as 'stable and consistent' (compared to the subsequent Allegro, which he describes as ’restless, changeable, nervous’).

[Pabmusic]

...Michael Steinberg, in his book The Symphony, describes the opening as 'stable and consistent' (compared to the subsequent Allegro, which he describes as ’restless, changeable, nervous’).

Contrast is the thing. The D minor section is nervous, chromatic, and unsure; the motto theme (A-flat) is calm, diatonic and - not assured, but 'smiling with a sigh'. This contrast recurrs throughout the work in so many ways until the mottos theme returns with difficulty (since the great 'thumps' try to disrupt it) at the end. I find great sadness (wistfulness, rather) there.

[Hornspieler]

I assume that this is then a different performance from the one on BBC Legends.

Well, I have BBC Legends 1-4, but no trace of Elgar on those.

Was there another issue of Silvestri recordings?

If so, my problem is solved.

Thank you very much Cloughie.

Go listen.

HS

[Pabmusic]

On 27th June 1907 Elgar had been woking on Slumber Scene from The Wand of Youth. Alice Elgar noted in her diary that "E. much music. Playing great beautiful tune".

The great beautiful tune became the opening of the A-flat symphony. Is is too fanciful to see a resemblance between the Slumber Scene and the motto theme?

Here they are (I've transposed the symphony theme into G for comparison):

[Maclintick]

Where is this in the Symphonies? (And where is it "not" in the Enigmas and Concertos?)

I don’t think I said that Elgar’s concertos or Enigma did not contain these passages. In fact I wrote "there’s no question that EE remains his own man in all his works, in the sense of recognisable continuity of style & musical fingerprints in the symphonies & ,say, Enigma or Cockaigne, & the concertos. “

I was trying to find a reason why modern audiences, including Beefy, found it easier to connect with the concertos than the symphonies, & speculated that it might be because that in the former they have an intermediary in the form of a soloist, & a pictorial narrative in the case of Cockaigne, Falstaff, Enigma etc.

In the Ab Symphony, one such episode appears after the D minor “tutta forza” fff crisis at figure 17 in the 1st movement — beginning at fig.19 where the fragmentary, momentarily sunny, wistful mood alternates with descending minor key phrases — hope & uncertainty mingling in a delicately orchestrated passage requiring equally subtle rubato from conductor & players ( e.g. Barbirolli’s classic EMI 1960's Philharmonia recording) or a corresponding passage after the meno mosso fff tutti at fig.29.

In the Eb Symphony, the shadowy passage after fig.24 in the 1st movement — chromatically shifting harmonies undermining the spirit of delight, or the drifting irresolution of the passage following the tempo primo at fig.50. As usual with Elgar, apart from his original coinage of the term “nobilmente”, he’s happy to use standard Italian expressive markings, but one might describe the mood here as “sinking into momentary doubt /irresolution"

[Conchis]

Here is how I escaped for the Barbirolli performance:

Ever since the two Sunday cycle trips home, I had wondered whether I would ever need to abscond from school again. That need began to east into my consciousness when I became aware that there was to be a concert in Manchester that I would have given almost anything to attend. Two years earlier, I had heard Elgar’s 1st Symphony for the first time at a Hallé concert. On that occasion the conductor had been Maurice Handford. Since then, it had been one of my favourite works and I hoped to see Sir John Barbirolli conducting it one day. That opportunity had arisen, for it was to be performed by Sir John Barbirolli and the Hallé Orchestra on 1st February 1968. I simply had to be there. Sir John had not been in the best of health and this might well be my one and only opportunity to hear his live interpretation. The problem was that this was at a Thursday evening concert in Manchester, leaving a very small window of opportunity to escape from the school and return without being noticed. I might be missed in the dormitories and teatime in the dining room. I would need some help, though I was concerned that this might implicate others in the plot. Nicholas Seymour, the Head Boy, was aware that I would not be in tea. I didn’t want him to lie on my behalf, but he agreed not to draw attention to my absence. Master-on-Duty, Roger Spinks might well have noticed an absent table-end.
My absence dormitories would be more difficult to explain. Hugh Jones agreed to ruffle my bedclothes to make it look slept in. I appreciated the loyalty of others, who seemed to be quite caught up in the adventure themselves.
The rest was up to me. I had booked my ticket well in advance, and had left my bicycle in my study. Leaving the school undetected before darkness fell was not going to be easy. I pushed it along the edge of Great Garden until I reached the wooden gate, and then made my way towards Wakefield and then on to Leeds. The Pontefract route would have been shorter, but only a foolish escapee would have attempted to cycle past the school entrance.
In the event, I arrived at Leeds City station with nearly half an hour to spare before the Manchester train’s departure. I chained my bicycle to the railings outside the station, removing the lights and pump for security. Once on the train, I felt more relaxed. Whatever the consequences, I knew my attendance at the concert would become a reality. The Trans-Pennine train arrived a few minutes late at Manchester Victoria, but there was still ample time to walk to the Free Trade Hall.
As I took my seat in the concert hall, I thought “All the teachers think I’m at school; yet here I am.”
The concert was every bit as good as I had hoped. Barbirolli could conduct this work like no other. By the time it had finished, I knew that if my absence was to be discovered, now was the time, for I was due at that moment to be making my way to the washrooms and dormitory. My greatest fear was that Night duty teacher, Alan Rothwell might be particularly vigilant, as he was on duty and had been the one to spot my absence a year earlier.
The last train from Manchester to Leeds was punctual and I collected my bicycle and refitted the lights. There was no point in hurrying back, but I took the shorter route back, as it would make little difference after midnight. If I had not been missed by then, my plan had certainly succeeded. I arrived back at my study window at 1.05 a.m. Gavin Mendham had left it unlocked, but I was careful not to raise the alarm by switching on any lights. I had a relatively good night’s sleep in a comfortable chair.
In the morning, I was greeted by friends who wanted to hear my story, but I was anxious to be reassured that I had not been missed. Hugh had noticed Alan Rothwell shining my torch on my ruffled bed with some suspicion, but he must have been satisfied, for he did nothing more.
Later, I told my parents about my brief escape, and my father was highly amused. Had I been caught, he might well have reacted differently.

Just catching up with this thread. A delight to read this! Had you been caught, I wonder how you would have been punished? Would the authorities have been delighted that a young person had such a passion for Elgar/Barbirolli, or would you have been treated with the same severity as if you'd absconded to catch a Kins/Rolling Stones concert?

[cloughie]

Well, I have BBC Legends 1-4, but no trace of Elgar on those.

Was there another issue of Silvestri recordings?

If so, my problem is solved.

Thank you very much Cloughie.

Go listen.

HS

HS

It is a 2cd set BBCL41822
The Elgar 1 was recorded in the Winter Gardens 25/07/1968

Disc 1 also has Cockaigne from 6/12/1966 and Arnold: Beckus the Dandipratt from 23/02/1963.
Disc 2 Tchaikovsky:Sym 2 12/11/1966, Debussy:Jeux 10/11/1965, Britten:Sea Interludes 26/11/1966 and Enescu:Rumanian Rhapsody 22/11/1966. All except the Enescu were recorded in the Winter Gardens.
Hope this helps.
I see it is available on Amazon for best part of around £15.
Cheers
Cloughie

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I don’t think I said that Elgar’s concertos or Enigma did not contain these passages. In fact I wrote "there’s no question that EE remains his own man in all his works, in the sense of recognisable continuity of style & musical fingerprints in the symphonies & ,say, Enigma or Cockaigne, & the concertos. “
I was trying to find a reason why modern audiences, including Beefy, found it easier to connect with the concertos than the symphonies, & speculated that it might be because that in the former they have an intermediary in the form of a soloist, & a pictorial narrative in the case of Cockaigne, Falstaff, Enigma etc.

So ... the Enigmas do have these "Edwardian Sensibilities" but modern audiences don't find them as off-putting because there's a soloist and/or a "story" that distracts from them?

In the Ab Symphony, one such episode appears after the D minor “tutta forza” fff crisis at figure 17 in the 1st movement — beginning at fig.19 where the fragmentary, momentarily sunny, wistful mood alternates with descending minor key phrases — hope & uncertainty mingling in a delicately orchestrated passage requiring equally subtle rubato from conductor & players ( e.g. Barbirolli’s classic EMI 1960's Philharmonia recording) or a corresponding passage after the meno mosso fff tutti at fig.29.

In the Eb Symphony, the shadowy passage after fig.24 in the 1st movement — chromatically shifting harmonies undermining the spirit of delight, or the drifting irresolution of the passage following the tempo primo at fig.50. As usual with Elgar, apart from his original coinage of the term “nobilmente”, he’s happy to use standard Italian expressive markings, but one might describe the mood here as “sinking into momentary doubt /irresolution"

So - when Beethoven suddenly lurches from G major to G minor (bars 77- 87) in the First Movement of his First Symphony, or Mozart from A major to A minor in the First Movement of his Prague Symphony - or (even more so) from G major to c minor in the First Movement of his Jupiter - all these examples put modern audiences off because of their "Edwardian sensibilities"? The "chromatically shifting harmonies" undermining the C pedal at the start of the Brahms First Symphony?

Mahler and Strauss also use similar "Edwardian" passages in their work, also mingling hope and uncertainty and "shadowy" chromatic harmonies undermining previously confident material. It may be a fin de siecle fingerprint, rather than a specifically "Edwardian" one - but modern audiences love Strauss and Mahler.

I realize that you are not criticizing Elgar as much as attempting to find an explanation for why some listeners prefer Elgar's other works to his Symphonies, but I think that you have shown that it can't be simply put down to "Edwardian sensibilities", nor - at least as far as I am able to judge - have you demonstrated what these might actually be in Musical terms. Some people just don't like Elgar's Symphonies, 'sorl.

[cloughie]

So ... the Enigmas do have these "Edwardian Sensibilities" but modern audiences don't find them as off-putting because there's a soloist and/or a "story" that distracts from them?


So - when Beethoven suddenly lurches from G major to G minor (bars 77- 87) in the First Movement of his First Symphony, or Mozart from A major to A minor in the First Movement of his Prague Symphony - or (even more so) from G major to c minor in the First Movement of his Jupiter - all these examples put modern audiences off because of their "Edwardian sensibilities"? The "chromatically shifting harmonies" undermining the C pedal at the start of the Brahms First Symphony?

Mahler and Strauss also use similar "Edwardian" passages in their work, also mingling hope and uncertainty and "shadowy" chromatic harmonies undermining previously confident material. It may be a fin de siecle fingerprint, rather than a specifically "Edwardian" one - but modern audiences love Strauss and Mahler.

I realize that you are not criticizing Elgar as much as attempting to find an explanation for why some listeners prefer Elgar's other works to his Symphonies, but I think that you have shown that it can't be simply put down to "Edwardian sensibilities", nor - at least as far as I am able to judge - have you demonstrated what these might actually be in Musical terms. Some people just don't like Elgar's Symphonies, 'sorl.

Of course ferney it could be that these people who don't like the Elgar Syms are these new listeners to R3 with the concentration span of a gnat.