Radio 3 in Concert 11.03.2016 - Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, Biber

[Once Was 4]

Put it bluntly (and generally speaking), the audience is not interested in the performers’ problems.

Once Was 4


Nobody goes to a concert to hear wrong notes.

Correct! But if the dreaded 'pearlies' strike then that is what they are likely to get sadly and I think that this was probably what went wrong here. It is a very interesting topic involving distressing situations discussion of which, in my student days, was strictly off limits - anybody who tried to discuss it would be regarded as 'weak'. The standard ways of overcoming nerves usually involved the use of alcohol. I once wrote up a musician's health conference which had involved modern ways of coping - meditation etc. - and was shocked when I got a phone call from a well known player (a Beecham regular now deceased) who reeled off a list of famous orchestral players who could not go onto a platform unless they were well on the way to being drunk. He did not see the need for all this meditation stuff. These days training is offered in music colleges but just how effective it is I do not know and, even in my own worst moments, I cannot see that I was ever likely to stand on my head uttering mumbo-jumbo.
Incidentally, does the obvious disdain for musicians' problems also apply to conductors? I well remember playing in a performance of the Schumann Piano Concerto in the Royal Festival hall (I was 'sitting up' having been booked as an extra for the Bruckner Symphony which followed) where the conductor - spoken of in glowing terms on this forum on more than one occasion - got into such a panic that he thrashed about wildly in the last movement leading to the 1st horn adjusting his stand so that he could not see the beat - this was the only way that he could use his ears to keep in touch with the rest of the orchestra and the (internationally known) soloist.
I could go on but I suspect that I am flogging a dead horse. If you have made it this far thank you for your attention.

[Tony Halstead]

Correct! But if the dreaded 'pearlies' strike then that is what they are likely to get sadly and I think that this was probably what went wrong here. It is a very interesting topic involving distressing situations discussion of which, in my student days, was strictly off limits - anybody who tried to discuss it would be regarded as 'weak'. The standard ways of overcoming nerves usually involved the use of alcohol. I once wrote up a musician's health conference which had involved modern ways of coping - meditation etc. - and was shocked when I got a phone call from a well known player (a Beecham regular now deceased) who reeled off a list of famous orchestral players who could not go onto a platform unless they were well on the way to being drunk. He did not see the need for all this meditation stuff. These days training is offered in music colleges but just how effective it is I do not know and, even in my own worst moments, I cannot see that I was ever likely to stand on my head uttering mumbo-jumbo.
Incidentally, does the obvious disdain for musicians' problems also apply to conductors? I well remember playing in a performance of the Schumann Piano Concerto in the Royal Festival hall (I was 'sitting up' having been booked as an extra for the Bruckner Symphony which followed) where the conductor - spoken of in glowing terms on this forum on more than one occasion - got into such a panic that he thrashed about wildly in the last movement leading to the 1st horn adjusting his stand so that he could not see the beat - this was the only way that he could use his ears to keep in touch with the rest of the orchestra and the (internationally known) soloist.
I could go on but I suspect that I am flogging a dead horse. If you have made it this far thank you for your attention.

[Nick Armstrong]

If you have made it this far thank you for your attention.

It was well worth the ride, thank you for that 'view from the inside'. Sorry about your horse

[doversoul1]

Correct! But if the dreaded 'pearlies' strike then that is what they are likely to get sadly and I think that this was probably what went wrong here. It is a very interesting topic involving distressing situations discussion of which, in my student days, was strictly off limits - anybody who tried to discuss it would be regarded as 'weak'. The standard ways of overcoming nerves usually involved the use of alcohol. I once wrote up a musician's health conference which had involved modern ways of coping - meditation etc. - and was shocked when I got a phone call from a well known player (a Beecham regular now deceased) who reeled off a list of famous orchestral players who could not go onto a platform unless they were well on the way to being drunk. He did not see the need for all this meditation stuff. These days training is offered in music colleges but just how effective it is I do not know and, even in my own worst moments, I cannot see that I was ever likely to stand on my head uttering mumbo-jumbo.
Incidentally, does the obvious disdain for musicians' problems also apply to conductors? I well remember playing in a performance of the Schumann Piano Concerto in the Royal Festival hall (I was 'sitting up' having been booked as an extra for the Bruckner Symphony which followed) where the conductor - spoken of in glowing terms on this forum on more than one occasion - got into such a panic that he thrashed about wildly in the last movement leading to the 1st horn adjusting his stand so that he could not see the beat - this was the only way that he could use his ears to keep in touch with the rest of the orchestra and the (internationally known) soloist.
I could go on but I suspect that I am flogging a dead horse. If you have made it this far thank you for your attention.

As far as I am aware, no professionals expect their customers to be understanding and generous about their poor services/performances, let alone lecturing the customers about spilt milk etc.. I assumed it was the same as professional musicians, their customers being the audience. If ‘the dreaded 'pearlies' strike’, the right thing to do is to cancel the performance. I don’t expect a bus driver to go to work if s/he has a large sore on the palm of his/her hand. What’s the difference?

[Bryn]

I don’t expect a bus driver to go to work if s/he has a large sore on the palm of his/her hand. What’s the difference?

Why on earth not? The vast majority of bus drivers get no sick pay other then SSP and, as all modern buses have power assisted steering, the steering wheel can literally be controlled with the little finger of one hand. Indeed, holding the steering wheel firmly with both hands is counterproductive, the tension between the two hands limiting flexibility of control. It would not be the ideal situation to drive with such a sore, but it need not present a major problem.

[doversoul1]

Why on earth not? The vast majority of bus drivers get no sick pay other then SSP and, as all modern buses have power assisted steering, the steering wheel can literally be controlled with the little finger of one hand. Indeed, holding the steering wheel firmly with both hands is counterproductive, the tension between the two hands limiting flexibility of control. It would not be the ideal situation to drive with such a sore, but it need not present a major problem.

Ah, what a pity that piccolo trumpet was not power assisted with automated, pre-programme-able valves

[Bryn]

Ah, what a pity that piccolo trumpet was not power assisted with automated, pre-programme-able valves

Except, as has been mentioned earlier in #38, playing the part on a natural piccolo trumpet might actually present fewer problems than using a modern valved instrument (pre-programmable or otherwise).

[Richard Barrett]

no professionals expect their customers to be understanding and generous about their poor services/performances, let alone lecturing the customers about spilt milk etc.. I assumed it was the same as professional musicians, their customers being the audience.

If we start thinking about ourselves as providers of professional services and audiences as customers, all is lost. Listeners are much more important than that. It is more a matter of inviting them on a shared journey. If there is no risk involved, this is like a journey down to the corner shop for a few essentials. If there is risk involved, it could be like a journey to higher realms of awareness and consciousness, or it could be like a car crash (with the difference that nobody gets hurt). Surely it's a better way of spending everyone's time (and, yes, money) to accept that risk, than to expect a perfect(ly safe) result every time?

[Richard Tarleton]

Thank you Richard for all your insights on this thread, which I've found helpful and thought-provoking. Yes I'm sure that's right.

I suppose I've attended a few car crashes in my concert-going life - actually the last involved a singer, watching an infirm Ben Heppner struggling to sing at all in Act 3 of Tristan - feelings of pathos on that occasion. And this concert had its moments, I'm glad I went, I was just struggling to understand from a technical point of view what I was witnessing. So thanks to all for professional thoughts.

[doversoul1]

If we start thinking about ourselves as providers of professional services and audiences as customers, all is lost. Listeners are much more important than that. It is more a matter of inviting them on a shared journey. If there is no risk involved, this is like a journey down to the corner shop for a few essentials. If there is risk involved, it could be like a journey to higher realms of awareness and consciousness, or it could be like a car crash (with the difference that nobody gets hurt). Surely it's a better way of spending everyone's time (and, yes, money) to accept that risk, than to expect a perfect(ly safe) result every time?

Richard
I should have known (well, I did, sort of) that the word ‘customers’ would stir things up. I agree with you entirely that a musical performance is not a simple transaction but a joint journey undertaken by the performer and the listener(s), although, in reality, I imagine many members of an audience are passive receivers. Still, there must be always some who leave the venue with new thoughts in their minds.


All the same, I believe that the ultimate responsibility is in the performer and the point I was making was that when the performance was poor, I didn’t expect the performer to shrug it off or make an excuse (do it privately by all means) and expect the audience to do the same (not that this poor trumpeter has done that as far as I know).

[Once Was 4]

As far as I am aware, no professionals expect their customers to be understanding and generous about their poor services/performances, let alone lecturing the customers about spilt milk etc.. I assumed it was the same as professional musicians, their customers being the audience. If ‘the dreaded 'pearlies' strike’, the right thing to do is to cancel the performance. I don’t expect a bus driver to go to work if s/he has a large sore on the palm of his/her hand. What’s the difference?

Somehow I think that you would be less than impressed if somebody walked on, took a bow, looked at the audience and said "oh dear, I have gone weak at the knees - the show is off!" Actually, if the pearlies strike offstage it can be a good thing - I knew a very fine horn player who threw up backstage several times before performances and then went on and played immaculately having got it out of his system in more ways than one.

But that is the point: you never know when it will strike or why. I know of players who are at their best if they have had a flaming row with somebody just before they have to play - they have got excited and that then comes through in the performance. The great horn player Sydney Coulston was an ex RAF bomber command rear gunner (the most dangerous job on the aircraft) in WW2. In fact, when his plane went down he was the only survivor. He used to say that "this job is like being back in the war - 95% boredom and 5% sheer terror."

[french frank]

All the same, I believe that the ultimate responsibility is in the performer and the point I was making was that when the performance was poor, I didn’t expect the performer to shrug it off or make an excuse (do it privately by all means) and expect the audience to do the same (not that this poor trumpeter has done that as far as I know).

I think most human beings are fragile at certain times. There is a difference between 'shrugging off a poor performance' as if it didn't matter and not allowing it go so deeply that future performances are jeopardised. Sometimes things go horribly wrong (as on this occasion) and as long as this isn't because the performer was casual about the performance, understanding the problem is important for that performer and mastering the nerves - and of interest to disappointed audience members. I think (generally speaking) audience members can empathise with the performer and imagine how wretched and embarrassed they must feel.

[doversoul1]

I think most human beings are fragile at certain times. There is a difference between 'shrugging off a poor performance' as if it didn't matter and not allowing it go so deeply that future performances are jeopardised. Sometimes things go horribly wrong (as on this occasion) and as long as this isn't because the performer was casual about the performance, understanding the problem is important for that performer and mastering the nerves - and of interest to disappointed audience members. I think (generally speaking) audience members can empathise with the performer and imagine how wretched and embarrassed they must feel.

Oh, I agree with all that. I’m not that coldblooded. [ed. just in case...]

It was just that Once Was 4’s #30 came at the wrong time, so it felt to me. While we, the audience members, were feeling quite upset about an exceptionally poor performance, someone came along and cheerily telling us all sorts of inside stories as if performers were all that matterd and audience was just incidental. I don’t think that was what Once Was 4 meant but it felt to me that way.

Sorry to have kept on. Shall we conclude this bit of the thread (I'll shut up)? If I sounded rude, I apologize but I did feel like being rude

[Richard Barrett]

A couple more tangential thoughts of a personal nature:

In music which is largely or completely improvised, or where the notation of the music generates partially unstable or unpredictable situations for players, the risk I mentioned in my previous post is intensified to the point where conventional notions of accuracy or even success and failure are themselves open to question; and these are areas which I personally find highly compelling both as listener and as creative musician.

Not entirely disconnectedly: everything depends on context. Listening to the performance in question, yes I feel disappointed for the performance and sympathetic towards the plight of the performer (since it's 100% sure that nobody will be feeling as bad about it as him), but another side of me is thinking that in another context what he's playing could be exactly the right thing, and wondering about how those sounds could be captured in notation or encouraged in some other way. When the improvising guitarist Derek Bailey made a "mistake" (an unintended sound) in a performance he would go home and notate it and practise it until it became a possible part of his vocabulary; when faced with a highly accomplished violinist who admitted he had no idea how to improvise, I suggested that he imagined playing a virtuoso étude in a crowded tube train, where both elbows and hands were constantly being unpredictably jostled. What he played after that was priceless.

Another example: I once heard at the Dartington Summer School an amateur performance of Bartók's Music for strings, percussion and celesta, which was highly approximate in both ensemble and intonation; after a few minutes I wanted to leave, but after a few more I understood more about where Ligeti's music comes from than from any amount of analysis. There is always something to listen into and learn from, in even the most unpromising musical situation. (At least in theory! I can't always bring myself to this frame of mind.)

[jean]

Investigating this further, I found this, accommpanied by the comment '...the musicians are all using period instuments... everyone is standing and almost dancing... except for the poor trumpet player... he is sitting down and barely breathing or moving at all... poor guy!'