Radio 3 in Concert 11.03.2016 - Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, Biber

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I hope that he did the right thing i.e., shrugged his shoulders regretfully, had a drink, went home and forgot all about it - tomorrow being another day and another concert hall.

Well - I'm trying to; but you people just won't let it rest!

[arthroceph]

Anybody can have an off day, or week. I think everybody understands that, whether for physical or mental reasons. It's what I thought first.

I suppose my main realization was that you can have a more, or less forgiving instrument, and it seemed clear that piccolo trumpet has got to rank as one of the least forgiving. In a word, stalinist.

[Bryn]

My introduction to Brandenburg No. 2 was the Harry Newstone recording on Saga, back in the mid-'60s. I remember the programme notes of the original issue (missing from the later re-issue which carried information only on the last three Brandenburgs copied from the second disc of the pair) referred to the difficulty of the piccolo-trumpet part, going so far as to claim that Adolph Scherbaum, the trumpeter on that recording, was uniquely able to play the part as written. A somewhat overblown[sic] claim, but highlighting the challenge of the part.

[french frank]

Well - I'm trying to; but you people just won't let it rest!

<smirk> As long as you got home safely, ferney …

[doversoul1]

Well it sounded to me as if he was either overcome by nerves or had something like a cold sore on his lip (which could then have led to the former). I have been there and it is a terrible experience - I hope that he did the right thing i.e., shrugged his shoulders regretfully, had a drink, went home and forgot all about it - tomorrow being another day and another concert hall.

One of my better moments was when a young female horn player - then still a student - went through something similar in a concert when I was also playing. I met her in the corridor afterwards and she was in a terrible state - tears rolling down her cheeks and snot coming out of her nose. She said something to the effect of - "that was terrible, I let everyone down!" I affected an attitude of mock horror and said "and look, there's some fluff on your sleeve as well!" going on to pretend that I was flicking something away from her before saying "all gone now, safe journey home, see you tomorrow!" She is having a very succesfull career now and has given me more than one peck on the cheek for that evening and very nice too.

Some pillock of a music critic once wrote a book about Toscanini and his concerts in London with the Philharmonia where the 1st trombone had a similar experience - saying that this was 'inexcusable behaviour' by the trombone player. No wonder a lot of us would like to throw every music critic in the country into a huge bowl of custard.

From the point of the audience of that concert, there is no second chance for the money and time they spent on. We all understand that performers have bad days but I don’t expect professional performers to use that as some kind of a comfort blanket.

I listened to the concert on iPlayer but couldn’t stick to it. I felt too sorry for Rachel Podger. The trumpet really was unlistenable.

[Once Was 4]

From the point of the audience of that concert, there is no second chance for the money and time they spent on. We all understand that performers have bad days but I don’t expect professional performers to use that as some kind of a comfort blanket.

I listened to the concert on iPlayer but couldn’t stick to it. I felt too sorry for Rachel Podger. The trumpet really was unlistenable.

With respect I think that you have missed my point - possibly because I did not make it correctly. Once it's gone, it's gone - there is no point crying over spilled milk. I am not sure how 'the pearlies' or other problems can be seen as a comfort blanket. As an irate orchestral player once shouted at a bumptious young conductor in a BBC studio - "nobody comes here to play delibarate wrong notes!" (but see below). I agree, that broadcast made very uncomfortable listening and I was tempted to switch it off. Yes, critics must comment but not imply that nerves or other problems are bad behaviour (as once, I might say, a thick pop musician did in a Musician's Union meeting at which I was present - he nearly burst into tears at the reaction that he got). If they did not care, they would probably not get nervous in the first place.

On a lighter note: in the days of live studio broadcasts one of the BBC orchestras was playing some piece of 20th century nonsense when one of the first violinists - a DMus - turned to his desk partner in a bar's rest and said "I wish that I was at home listening to this" - in the next bar's rest he turned round again saying - "I could get up and switch it off".

[doversoul1]

Put it bluntly (and generally speaking), the audience is not interested in the performers’ problems.

Once Was 4

nobody comes here to play delibarate wrong notes

Nobody goes to a concert to hear wrong notes.

[symphony1010]

In recent weeks some professional musician friends and I had 'enjoyed' a heated discussion on the demanding nature of Brandenburg 2 for the modern trumpet player. I had questioned how good it could have sounded in Bach's day given that it presents such problems for the majority of modern players. I was making the assumption that modern technique and modern instruments had led to the significant likelihood that if we can't play it now it might have been even worse then!
In addition, as a pro clarinettist without much need to play Bach I dared to suggest that Bach had been unreasonable in his demands in this and other pieces. I had to eat my words when I heard the JE Gardiner Prom performance available on YT where the player of the trumpet there handles it as an everyday occurrence. It might still be very difficult but it seemed to me that the modern piccolo trumpet seems to present more issues.
The live performance on Radio 3 was extraordinary as I would have not expected a player to put themselves in that position. It must have been equally bad in rehearsal and it wasn't the case of a few wrong notes, the whole deal was clearly beyond him. The only other thing I can think of is that he incurred a significant loss of lip during rehearsal and practice and had incurred some sort of semi-permanent damage.
Interestingly his Twitter feed proclaimed the concert with a single word 'Showtime! It has since gone very quiet. Poor guy.

[french frank]

Hello symphony1010. Thanks for joining - and contributing so swiftly.

I don't think I can bear to listen to this - rather like the YouTube clip of Maria João Pires being confronted with having to play a Mozart concerto she wasn't expecting (she coped admirably but her obvious distress is not enjoyable to watch).

[Richard Tarleton]

And thank you from me, symphony 1010, most interesting.

[doversoul1]

And thank you from me, symphony 1010, most interesting.

And thank you from me, too.

I think a lot of Baroque composers composed their solo works with a particular performer in mind, which means that the solo part must have been challenging to the performer but not unreasonable / un-practicable (?) on the instrument.

What made this performance so bizarre was that it was the work played by numerous performers and not something that had been discovered and being played for the first time at a concert. And as symphony1010 says, there must have been a rehearsal. And if a serious problem had occurred after the rehearsal, I’d have thought the right thing for the performer to do would be to withdraw from the concert. There must be enough trumpeters who could step in at the last minute notice for such a well know work. Very odd indeed.

[Richard Barrett]

I think a lot of Baroque composers composed their solo works with a particular performer in mind, which means that the solo part must have been challenging to the performer but not unreasonable / un-practicable (?) on the instrument.

And not just Baroque composers of course. Something to bear in mind is that when for example the second Brandenburg Concerto was written, trumpeters (to name only these) would spend their entire working lives playing recently composed music from the region they lived in, thus with a highly restricted stylistic range compared to today's players who are expected to be able to play everything from the 18th to the 21st centuries, by composers from highly varied traditions and musical intentions. I think therefore you could expect accomplished players in 1720 in and around Saxony to play Bach's music at least as well as anyone does now.

[ostuni]

There is, of course, much more to listen to in this concert than Brandenburg 2! For what it's worth, a source tells me that rehearsals had shown no technical problems - but the poor trumpeter in this case is certainly not the first brass played to have produced all the good notes in the afternoon, and have too few left over for the evening...

[jean]

Thanks for this discussion. I said in my first post on this topic that when I heard what we heard the other evening, I always felt there must be a reason (other than sheer incompetence). I am glad to have more understanding of a number of reasons.

I also said (on the Choral Music thread) that I thought singing was a lot easier than playing any instrument. Nothing I've read since has made me change my mind!

[vinteuil]

I also said (on the Choral Music thread) that I thought singing was a lot easier than playing any instrument. Nothing I've read since has made me change my mind!

... surely that depends on the indiwidual? I can produce a just-about-acceptable musical performance of various works on the keyboard; no-one wd enjoy my singing - I certainly don't!