International Women's Day: Tuesday 8 March

[ahinton]

There you go. As with many other aspects of promoting various kinds of "classical" music, there seems to be a belief, or a desperate hope, that making something out to be what it isn't will somehow turn on (a new constituency of) listeners.

Indeed; it's far more likely to do the very opposite if it does anything at all.

[Richard Barrett]

in the second half of the C20, rock and pop became rather overly obsessed (IMO)with the idea of the composer /performer

Why "overly", if I may ask?

It is absolutely not true to say that Berlioz was not a performer - he was active in conducting his music all over Europe, as of course (and not only in Europe) were many late twentieth century composers such as Stockhausen, Berio and of course Boulez; and others such as Nono and Xenakis would regularly perform the sound projection of their electronic music. But this is by the by; I was looking for possible reasons why women composers are less visible in the 19th century than in previous times. This doesn't seem to be true in literature though perhaps it is true of the visual arts. So possibly a division between supposedly "masculine" and "feminine" musical activities could explain it. Could it also be said that the position of women in society took a step backwards after the Enlightenment? It seems unlikely on the face of it, but I'm not enough of a historian to have an opinion. Anyway there must be some explanation.

[teamsaint]

Why "overly", if I may ask?

It is absolutely not true to say that Berlioz was not a performer - he was active in conducting his music all over Europe, as of course (and not only in Europe) were many late twentieth century composers such as Stockhausen, Berio and of course Boulez; and others such as Nono and Xenakis would regularly perform the sound projection of their electronic music. But this is by the by; I was looking for possible reasons why women composers are less visible in the 19th century than in previous times. This doesn't seem to be true in literature though perhaps it is true of the visual arts. So possibly a division between supposedly "masculine" and "feminine" musical activities could explain it. Could it also be said that the position of women in society took a step backwards after the Enlightenment? It seems unlikely on the face of it, but I'm not enough of a historian to have an opinion. Anyway there must be some explanation.

Overly is just an opinion,or nuance really.
There is room for everything, the songwriter, the great performer, the performer /writer, of course.
I think that American and British rock/ pop tended , from maybe around 1960 onwards, to find bands and singers writing their own material, and using the material of others as the exception rather than the rule. I know this is all generalisation. I wonder if this something to do with retaining songwriting royalties?
I'd say this was in contrast to the norms in popular music from the first half of the C20, and I sense, though I'm not really in touch with the genre as I once was, whether this may be changing again?

anyway, back to " Overly", I just wonder if some bands might have been better advised to use material written by( or with) others, ( when the orthodoxy is/was to write one's own material) and perhaps concentrated effort on performing , for example. Or Vice versa, of course.

[ahinton]

It is absolutely not true to say that Berlioz was not a performer - he was active in conducting his music all over Europe

Quite, although he was no instrumentalist to speak of. Also, in more recent times, Boulez, in his early days, was also active as a pianist and, although I'm not sure if recorded evidence of his playing survives, his keyboard accomplishments were by several accounts quite considerable.

I was looking for possible reasons why women composers are less visible in the 19th century than in previous times. This doesn't seem to be true in literature though perhaps it is true of the visual arts. So possibly a division between supposedly "masculine" and "feminine" musical activities could explain it.

It's a thought, certainly, but I'm not sure that this was the case; is there evidence that such a division was ever encouraged by anyone in those days, for example prominent male musicians seeking to implement such an agenda for whaever reason or none? Female composers certainly seemed to become less visible in the 19th century than previously, but quite why that situation should have come about I do not know, especially since, as you write, it seems not to have been the case in literature to anything like the same extent.

Could it also be said that the position of women in society took a step backwards after the Enlightenment? It seems unlikely on the face of it, but I'm not enough of a historian to have an opinion. Anyway there must be some explanation.

There must indeed, though what it might be is hard to pinpoint, especially if what we're considering here appears to be less than consistent across the various arts.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Quite - and, in his early days, he was also active as a pianist and, although I'm not sure if recorded evidence of his playing survives, his keyboard accomplishments were by several accounts quite considerable.

??? Berlioz? (Did you read "Boulez"?)

[ahinton]

??? Berlioz? (Did you read "Boulez"?)

Oh, mon Dieu, so I did! Apologies to the three "B"s - RB, PB and HB! Senior moment again! Aaargh!!! Now duly corrected.

[vinteuil]

Quite - and, in his early days, he was also active as a pianist and, although I'm not sure if recorded evidence of his playing survives, his keyboard accomplishments were by several accounts quite considerable.

... no : Berlioz did not play the piano -

"So you see – I had mastered three majestic, incomparable instruments, the flageolet, the flute and the guitar. Who could fail to recognise in this judicious choice the impulse of nature which was driving me towards the most immense orchestral effects and music on the scale of Michelangelo! The flute, the guitar and the flageolet!… I have never had any other skills as an instrumentalist, though these seem to me respectable enough as it is. But I am not being fair to myself: I could also play the drum.

My father was against letting me start studying the piano, otherwise I would probably have become a formidable pianist, like countless others. He had absolutely no intention of making an artist of me, and was probably worried that the piano might establish too strong a hold on me and lead me deeper into music than he wished.

I have often regretted not being able to play the piano; this skill could be of great use to me in many circumstances. But when I think of the frightening number of trivia that are produced with such ease day-in day-out – disgraceful compositions that would be beyond the reach of their authors if they had to rely on pen and paper and were deprived of their musical kaleidoscope – I have to thank my lucky stars for having been obliged to learn to compose in silence and with complete freedom. This has preserved me from the tyranny of fingering patterns, which are so damaging for creative composition, and from the seduction of commonplaces to which composers are exposed most of the time. But admittedly the countless devotees of such pieces express in my case the opposite regret; but this leaves me unmoved."

[ahinton]

... no : Berlioz did not play the piano

Of course he didn't! My misreading of RB's post, kindly drawn to my attention by fhg, gave rise to what I wrote which I have now accordingly corrected. Stupid mistake on my part!

[jean]

I was looking for possible reasons why women composers are less visible in the 19th century than in previous times. This doesn't seem to be true in literature though perhaps it is true of the visual arts.

You've mentioned the separation of the roles of composer and interpreter - there's also the role of courtesan, which women may later have preferred to distance themselves from.

Barbara Strozzi is not the only figure to have inhabited all of these worlds; think of Aphra Behn; think of Artemisia Gentileschi.

[Richard Barrett]

You've mentioned the separation of the roles of composer and interpreter - there's also the role of courtesan, which women may later have preferred to distance themselves from.

Barbara Strozzi is not the only figure to have inhabited all of these worlds; think of Aphra Behn; think of Artemisia Gentileschi.

I was indeed thinking of all three; but in the 19th century women novelists are very much present in a way that women composers aren't, don't you think?

[jean]

Yes, that's true. But the entirety of their artistic production could be carried out within the home.

The moment a woman artist is out in the world, sexual availability (welcomed or enforced) comes into play

[ahinton]

Yes, that's true. But the entirety of their artistic production could be carried out within the home.

The moment a woman artist is out in the world, sexual availability (welcomed or enforced) comes into play

OK, but then composers can accomplish most of their artistic production at home whereas performers cannot (apart from practising, of course).

[french frank]

So possibly a division between supposedly "masculine" and "feminine" musical activities could explain it. Could it also be said that the position of women in society took a step backwards after the Enlightenment? It seems unlikely on the face of it, but I'm not enough of a historian to have an opinion. Anyway there must be some explanation.

"Music will perhaps become [your brother's] profession, while for you it can and must be only an ornament". Abraham Mendelssohn to his daughter, 1820.

"From my knowledge of Fanny I should say that she has neither inclination nor vocation for authorship. She is too much all that a woman ought to be for this. She regulates her house, and neither thinks of the public nor of the musical world, nor even of music at all, until her first duties are fulfilled. Publishing would only disturb her in these, and I cannot say that I approve of it." Felix Mendelssohn of his sister, 1837.

[Richard Barrett]

Yes, that's true. But the entirety of their artistic production could be carried out within the home.

The moment a woman artist is out in the world, sexual availability (welcomed or enforced) comes into play

Yes, that seems to me a very convincing answer.

[ahinton]

Yes, that seems to me a very convincing answer.

But how might it account for the decline of the woman composer in the 19th century when composition can mostly be done at home whereas performance mostly can't? (or am I missing something here?)...