International Women's Day: Tuesday 8 March

[Richard Barrett]

This is a discussion of gender s a determinant. I think that is worth discussing as a separate issue, just as discussing race or religion would be (which have alsop been barely mentioned on this thread).

The problem with addressing class as part of the discussion is that it can be made to seem, in narrowly Marxist terms, the only determining factor.

I would say: it isn't the only determining factor, even in Marxist terms, but it is certainly the fundamental level upon which inequalities including but not restricted to gender inequality are realised. That is as you say a whole other discussion, but it must be part of the answer to the question of fluctuating gender inequality in (for example) the composition of music. I was a bit puzzled by Kea's implication that the Enlightenment made advances in the direction of women's equality which were subsequently reversed in a backlash. I'm not sure the Enlightenment did anything in particular for women. But I'm far from an expert.

[jean]

I don't know anything about this blogger, but her views chime with mine - especially with my memories of Militant in the dark days when they controlled Liverpool City Council.

But enough of politics...

[P. G. Tipps]

It is of course only possible for you to simply think that because you are a white man.

Well, unlike your very goodself, I am completely colour and gender-blind when it comes to a man or woman's ability to 'think'.

I do not 'judge' others on their race and/or gender.

I would have thought that you, as a 'white man' yourself and a self-proclaimed Marxist, might readily concur with such sentiments... ?

[Beef Oven!]

It is of course only possible for you to simply think that because you are a white man.

Well said, bruv'.

(It is of course entirely expected for you to simply say that because you are a white man)

[Beef Oven!]

Back on topic, great speech by the President of Turkey's wife on International Women's Day. All in preparation for EU membership. Think they'll need to try a bit harder!

[P. G. Tipps]

Back on topic, great speech by the President of Turkey's wife on International Women's Day. All in preparation for EU membership. Think they'll need to try a bit harder!

No politics PLEASE! ..

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I was a bit puzzled by Kea's implication that the Enlightenment made advances in the direction of women's equality which were subsequently reversed in a backlash. I'm not sure the Enlightenment did anything in particular for women. But I'm far from an expert.

I made a similar implication, also; and I, too, am no expert. But, whilst these "advances" aren't to be thought of as the creation of new laws nor the establishment of women's political rights - the chaps put paid to that in the French Revolution - but (as I understand it) as a time when women make public their new ideas of how they can contribute to society in equal terms to those of men.

During the Enlightenment, the first published work of women scientists appear: in Italy, Giuseppa Barbapiccola and Marie Agnesi; in France Emile du Chatelet and Sophie Germain. In England, the first published history text is produced by Catherine Macauley (a member of the Lunar Society) between 1765-85. Feminist political activism is a strong feature of the French Revolutionary movement, swiftly and brutally put down by Robespierre - leading to Olympe de Gouge writing her Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Female Citizen, protesting against the failure of the Revolution to recognise women's equality. This (and Gouge's resulting execution) in turn fired Mary Wollstonecroft to produce her own Vindication.

Aside from overtly "political" activity, women who had the means increasingly made "defiant" choices in lifestyle that scratched away at the roles that had previously been assigned to women. Mere "scratching", but the first such - and considered dangerous enough to be significantly targeted after Waterloo, and kept suppressed (in the hope that such ideas would be forgotten - as, indeed, largely they were) until late in the Nineteenth Century.

So, "What did the Enlightenment do for Women?" Well, at the very least, it created an intellectual environment in which the old order and conventions and beliefs were ripe for questioning and (as we would say) deconstruction. In this atmosphere, the first presentations of the possibility and desirability of gender equality were placed in the "Public Domain" - presentations which so appalled the conservative mentality, that they were rigorously supplanted throughout Europe by Victorian values of "Duty, Service, and Self-denial" presented as the feminine ideal.

[Beef Oven!]

During the Enlightenment, the first published work of women scientists appear: in Italy, Giuseppa Barbapiccola and Marie Agnesi; in France Emile du Chatelet and Sophie Germain. In England, the first published history text is produced by Catherine Macauley (a member of the Lunar Society) between 1765-85. Feminist political activism is a strong feature of the French Revolutionary movement, swiftly and brutally put down by Robespierre - leading to Olympe de Gouge writing her Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Female Citizen, protesting against the failure of the Revolution to recognise women's equality. This (and Gouge's resulting execution) in turn fired Mary Wollstonecroft to produce her own Vindication.

Aside from overtly "political" activity, women who had the means increasingly made "defiant" choices in lifestyle that scratched away at the roles that had previously been assigned to women. Mere "scratching", but the first such - and considered dangerous enough to be significantly targeted after Waterloo, and kept suppressed (in the hope that such ideas would be forgotten - as, indeed, largely they were) until late in the Nineteenth Century.

So, "What did the Enlightenment do for Women?" Well, at the very least, it created an intellectual environment in which the old order and conventions and beliefs were ripe for questioning and (as we would say) deconstruction. In this atmosphere, the first presentations of the possibility and desirability of gender equality were placed in the "Public Domain" - presentations which so appalled the conservative mentality, that they were rigorously supplanted throughout Europe by Victorian values of "Duty, Service, and Self-denial" presented as the feminine ideal.

Exactement! Well said.

[P. G. Tipps]

We Scots know a thing or two about 'Enlightenments' ... despite a fair few of us being white men ...

[ahinton]

Exactement! Well said.

Well said indeed.

What I've never managed to understand (presumably because I'm too thick to be able to do so) is why it ever was that certain males persuaded themselves to presume that oppressing females - or at least categorising them and accordingly ascribing to them very limited scope for contributing to society - was a "good idea" for society; the perceived logic of such a notion has always escaped me and made me wonder why it was/is that certain males seem to be less interested in the overall benefits to society than they were/are to what they erroneously perceive to be their own best interests.

That said, I do think that fhg has put his finger on an important pulse here.

[P. G. Tipps]

Well said indeed.

What I've never managed to understand (presumably because I'm too thick to be able to do so) is why it ever was that certain males persuaded themselves to presume that oppressing females - or at least categorising them and accordingly ascribing to them very limited scope for contributing to society - was a "good idea" for society; the perceived logic of such a notion has always escaped me and made me wonder why it was/is that certain males seem to be less interested in the overall benefits to society than they were/are to what they erroneously perceive to be their own best interests.

That said, I do think that fhg has put his finger on an important pulse here.

I don't believe for one moment that you are 'thick', ahinton!

However, it is very easy to succumb to the modern and incessant feminist clap-trap that ALL males are forever 'oppressing' ALL females.

Observant folk, with the additional ability to think for themselves, know that this is simply not true and, in fact, the wife has just told me to ... oh, never mind!

[MrGongGong]

However, it is very easy to succumb to the modern and incessant feminist clap-trap that ALL males are forever 'oppressing' ALL females.
:

You made that up

You are Rob Titchner and I claim my £100

[ahinton]

it is very easy to succumb to the modern and incessant feminist clap-trap that ALL males are forever 'oppressing' ALL females.

Did I ever say so? The gist of what I wrote is that there's neveretheless been an awful lot of it about over the centuries and if you can't see that then you need (or have wilfully put yourself beyond) serious help.

[ahinton]

You made that up

You are Rob Titchner and I claim my £100

Whoever he may be, I doubt that you'll ever get a hundred cents, let alone a hundred quid, out of him; he's a Scotsman! (OK, so am I, but you didn't ask for mine)...

[Richard Barrett]

As far as social class goes, that's obviously another intersecting factor, though I wouldn't call it the sole fundamental of all forms of oppression.

I think we shall have to agree to disagree about that.