Is Gergiev as good as his reputation suggests?

[Guest]

Last night, on Sky Arts 2, I watched the worst performance of Tchaikovski's Pathetic symphony that I have ever encountered.

Gergiev throwing himself about like a mad dervish, fingers twirling and face distorting.

The Marinski Theatre Orchestra totally out of step, only held together by the more assertive instruments at various places in the score.

The timpanist could not even beat five evenly spaced drum beats in the 2nd movement. What chance had the remainder to maintain rhythmic integrity?

Poor camera work, but at least Gergiev could not be blamed for that.

When I saw the LSO performing Stravinski's Rite Of Spring last year, I had my doubts about the man waving his arms and twirling his fingers on the podium.
Only a top orchestra, familiar over the years with that work, could have got through those changes of rhythm and dynamics so adroitly, whilst completely ignoring the antics of the conductor.

What do others think? Over the course of my own career, I was able to follow the beat of conductors even as eccentric as Rudolf Schwarz and Silvestri, but from the very start, I would have been quite unable to know where to play the first note of the piece in what is a work which is in every professional's repertoire.

I gave up watching "New Tricks" on satellite TV to watch this performance and found myself watching new tricks of a different kind.

Ventilhorn

[Ferretfancy]

Ventilhorn
I'm off to hear him next week, in a programme that includes Tchaikovsky's Manfred, so I hope it's better than the Pathetique performance that you mention. I have seen Gergiev conduct some marvellous performances, including a terrific 1911 Petrushka at the Barbican, and Lady Macbeth of Mtensk at the Proms. He also conducted a wonderful complete Sleeping Beauty there with the LSO. On that occasion he flew in from Moscow only an hour or two before the concert, and there's the rub. I think he relies too much on the inspiration of the moment, and as he seems to be in complete sympathy with the LSO it often works, but not always.

I can't speak from your experience as a performer, only as a keen listener, but I feel that with Gergiev you have to accept the worst sometimes in order to find the best.
I've been lucky to hear some excellent performances from Gergiev, but must admit that on the whole I prefer less histrionic conductors like Tilson-Thomas or Salonen , who seem better prepared.

[Mr Pee]

I've been watching these on Sky as well. I got as far as the 4th Symphony and then I'm afraid I'd had enough of his conducting to last me a lifetime, so I can't comment on No.6 specifically. As you say, I have no idea how the orchestra can follow him. There seems to be no relation at all between his conducting and the music. And the weird trembling fingers- is he trying to conduct every semiquaver?

I got about half way through the first movement of no 4, but by then the mannerisms had become too much for me.

And don't get me started on the sweat. I'm surprised the front desks don't have umbrellas strapped to their heads.

[Mandryka]

I tend to agree with ferretfancy. I should add, it's many years since I last saw VG conduct, but I can recall some very exciting performances of Pique Dame, Lady Macbeth and a Marinsky Parsifal at the RAH. Even as a comparative novice concertgoer, though, I can recall wondering how orchestras managed to follow his beat - I suppose it's a case of him developing a symbiotic relationship with his bands, so they're familiar with all his idiosyncrasies and know how to interpret them.

Yes, I've heard that Gergiev can either turn in inspired performances, or dreadful ones: the old Russian hatred of compromise seems to be at work in him.

[salymap]

I have only seen Gergiev on TV but prefer to listen with my eyes closed. The spray of sweat, the stringy hair and the weird finger wagging are very off putting. I have heard some good performances, but, as in a very different way with Jackie du Pre, the above mentioned and her swaying about detract from the music IMHO.

[johnb]

I agree that Gergiev's performances can be very variable but, at best, they can be truly exceptional. I will never forget the Shostakovich 4 that he did at the 2002 Proms with the (then) Mariinksy Orchestra or the Prokofiev Symphony Cycle at the Barbican. For me, his forte is very much with Russian music.

As far as conducting technique is concerned, I remember Edward Downes being interviewed some years ago. Something he said really stuck in my head, so much that I later made a transcript:

Let me tell you the two things that Scherchen told me when I left, after studying with him for two years. He said “first of all, don’t get married” (he’d been married six times), and the other thing was “if you have the music in your head you can turn round and wave your ass at the orchestra and they will play it”. That is to say, if you have it firmly in your head, if you know exactly what you want to hear, his German word was [word I didn’t catch] which is an ‘ideal performance’. If you’ve got an ideal performance in your head you will find the gesture. When people talk about technique – you look at some of the most famous, most successful conductors (just think of Furtwangler for example).
Edward Downes

[Dave2002]

On a good day, in the right music, Gergiev is superb. I've never heard him do a bad performance, but I have heard him do a few "serviceable" ones. His performances of Sravinsky ballets are often outstanding, and his Shostakovich is usually good too, though there are others, such as Petrenko and Sinaisky who do Russian symphonies well. G's Shostakovich 4 at the Proms (was it really so long ago?) was staggeringly good.

[Flosshilde]

Ah well - I've booked to see 'Die Frau ohne Schatten' with him & the Mariinsky at the Ed Fest. At least, I won't be able to see him, as he'll be in the pit - which would seem to be a good thing!

[prokkyshosty]

I'm glad this subject has come up. As you might guess from my username, I'm quite partial to a couple of fellows... both of whom are obviously right in Gergiev's wheelhouse, so I end up having to deal with him a lot. His famous globe-trotting schedule is a disservice to everyone. Recently I was living in Los Angeles and saw him twice conduct the Mariinsky after grueling US tours and they were tired and sloppy. His schedule makes it impossible -- impossible I say! -- to get a proper amount of rehearsal time with any orchestra. I also wonder how much his reputation is based on the fact that he does mostly warhorses from the Russian repertory (and Mahler and Verdi) that would make anyone sound good. I often wonder what would happen if he programmed something like the Vaughn Williams 5th with the LSO, whether he would even have any patience for something subtle and non-showy like that.

Though I'm happy he programs them a lot, especially some rare Prokofiev that needs to be heard more, I'm often disappointed that Gergiev is now the standard-bearer for my favorite music. Especially as we've lost a lot of Prokofians recently (Rostropovich, Christopher Palmer, the aforementioned Downes) and some who seem to not be heard from as much anymore (Jarvi, even Maxim Shostakovich).

For your amusement or horror, here is a clip of him conducting the Shostakovich 11th. Apparently he had been claiming 'the baton is not important, it doesn't matter what I hold' and so he's conducting this with a toothpick:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYnzgHgYAp8&feature=related

[Mandryka]

I once heard some wag refer to him as 'the Putin of the podium'.

[Angle]

Thanks for that, Mandryka. Well worth remembering - and using!

[Osborn]

I think you're all forgetting about rehearsals. Everyone should know pretty much what's expected of them on the night. I've seen him conduct Prokofiev and the Berlioz Requiem with the combined forces of the Mariinsky and CBSO orchestras and choruses - 440 performers in all. His fluttering fingers kept everything under control and drew some truly spectacular playing and singing. Yes, there were some rough edges but stick to CD's if you can't take that

Ditto the closing night of the 2010 Verbier Festival - a magnificent high octane Salome led by Debbie Voigt. He's generally very good in the opera house. I didn't like like his Mahler at last year's proms, but then I detest Mahler's music anyway

[johnb]

I once heard some wag refer to him as 'the Putin of the podium'.

That reminds me of the excellent BBC4 series "All the Russias". In the programme on power in Russia he siad something like "Russia needs strong rulers" (i.e. in line with the Tsars, Lenin, Stalin, etc). I think this was pre-Putin.

[Alison]

There's at least one thing Mr Gergiev seems to lack -

a repertoire that includes Beethoven.

[Mr Pee]

but then I detest Mahler's music anyway

There's some music I don't like- but "detest"?

I can understand detesting politicians, or jellied eels, but I would never say I detest music.

Although it has to be said that if you wish to be converted to Mahler, Gergiev is probably not the best place to start, since the subleties of the music seem quite beyond him.