Why the glaring omission?

[Guest]

Ever since I started contributing to the BBC Messageboards a few years ago, and now onto this forum, I’ve never ceased to wonder why it is that although by common consent (and if I’m wrong please don’t shoot me), the greatest composers seem to be always Bach, Beethoven and/or Mozart.

I hardly ever, if at all, see any mention of Bach here. Why is this? I myself know very little of his output, and always come on here to expand my knowledge of him, and yet, his omission is glaring.

Why is this?

Mario

[Eudaimonia]

Well, any forum is made up of topics individual posters find interesting...if nobody's talking about Bach, perhaps you can chalk it up to the idiosyncratic personal preferences of the 100-odd people who choose to start threads here. And given that many of us are very odd people indeed, there's no reason to expect our thread ideas to be representative of anything "popular", well-respected, or widely-liked at all. In other words, we've all got our crotchety old hobby horses and ride them all over the place as we please.

If you've got a question or want recommendations, why not start something yourself? I'm sure plenty of people would have something useful to say and be glad to participate once you put it out there.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Mario: I'm struggling to think of any particularly thrilling threads here on Mozart or Beethoven either, except of course for the lengthy Hurrah/Boo exchange inspired by the Radio 3 WAM complete survey, and that wasn't particularly insightful on the subject of WAM if memory serves.

About the most likely area is the BaL board when a particular work comes up. There's a thread recently launched on the WAM Piano Concerto no 17 for instance, and even that has prompted another WAM-Boo! message

Perhaps most of us just take these and other greats as a 'given'? To check this out, you could try launching a controversial thread or two: "The Goldbergs bore me to tears", "Who needs the 48? - any random half-dozen say it all", or "Bach's Matthew Passion? - I'm waiting for Offenbach's"

I might just be tempted myself to try something like "Why does every Baroque guru record the Bach cantatas complete? Wouldn't a couple of well-chosen highlights discs save us all a great deal of time, money and Lutheran misery?"

[Auferstehen2]

Thank you Eudaimonia, I find your reasoning pretty logical, though I am surprised that of the 100 or so thread starters, none should start something on Bach. I’ll take your advice and begin.

I confessed that my knowledge of his works is VERY limited, the odd Mass (can’t remember which one, the B min I think), Brandenburgs, Double Concerto, a few Cello Suites, THE Toccata, some Sonatas and Partitas and of course, Mein Jesu notwithstanding.

This is an honest question. What other great works should I consider? Whenever I read a review of a Bach cantata, it seems he wrote millions of the things!

But I’d prefer some large-scale beefy stuff. I’d welcome some suggestions please.

Thanks,

Mario

[Auferstehen2]

LeMartinPecheur

I promise you, on the old BBC MBs, I started a gargantuan thread, some older members will recall its name, entitled, “Beethoven is Dead”. It reached over 800 messages.

I worked very hard at engendering an interesting and intellectual discussion on the great man’s works (I simply love this guy), but the personal attacks and criticisms I received were unbelievable, everything from being called a troll, to massaging people’s egos to reach the magical 1000 mark, to being too oily and friendly, etc, etc. In the end, I waved the white flag and surrendered, while attacks continued unabated.

That taught me the lesson that vigour and passion can sometimes get you in trouble.

I’d love to start another thread on Beethoven and Mozart, but do wonder whether it’s wise.

Mario

[PatrickOD]

a

[Pianorak]

Mario - if you want "large-scale beefy stuff" there isn't an awful lot. Apart from the St John and St Matthew Passions there is the Christmas Oratorio (BWV 248) and the Easter Oratorio (BWV 249), about a dozen harpsichord concertos and four orchestral suites and probably some works I can't think of right now. I am very fond of the harpsichord concertos and would recommend them. If you want an intellectual challenge try Die Kunst der Fuge (BWV 1080) which exists in various versions, from keyboard to orchestral. I have a recording of the piano version played by Grigory Sokolov. There is bound to be HIPP version as well. Sorry can't be more helpful but I'm not really into baroque music.

Only just seen PatrickOD's post.

[BBMmk2]

To me Bach is the Alpha and Omega of this so=called genre of music, 'classical music'. Nothing can surpass JSB, as far as i know!

[rauschwerk]

But I’d prefer some large-scale beefy stuff. I’d welcome some suggestions please.

How about some of the bigger organ pieces? Toccata & Fugue in F, BWV 540; Prelude & Fugue in E minor, BWV 548 (known as the 'Wedge' because of the shape of the fugue subject); Prelude and Fugue in D, BWV 532 (Bach must have surely have loved showing off with this one); Fantasia & Fugue in G minor, BWV 542; Passacaglia & Fugue in C minor, BWV 582; Prelude & Fugue in B minor, BWV 544; Prelude & Fugue in E flat, BWV 552 (known as 'St. Anne' because the principal fugue subject resembles the hymn tune of that name).

[LeMartinPecheur]

I had a little think about ways into JSB while watching Man Utd thrash Schalke on the box, which I know you'll appreciate Mario! Other posters have thought of most of the things I was going to suggest, though I'd perhaps suggest you follow your own nose for favoured musical styles and instruments: Bach organ music is great so long as you don't dislike organs and fugues!

If massive counterpoint isn't your thing then the harpsichord music might be worth a try: Goldbergs, French and English Suites, Partitas etc - a lot more secular (dance-y) than the organ music.

You mention the Double Concerto, presumably the 2-violin concerto in D minor: have you really managed to get this but miss the 2 solo violin concertos, not to mention another double, the violin & oboe concerto (admittedly a reconstruction)?

There are so many gateways into Bach and nobody can tell you "Oh that's not the right place to start" because he set the same high musical standards of craftsmanship and inspiration in virtually all his 1000+ works.

[But as I said earlier, only tiptoe into the cantatas when you feel ready for their strange C18 Lutheran mixture of exaltation and self-abasement - to me something of an acquired taste. Great music even so: just a pity about a lot of the texts ]

[Eudaimonia]

I worked very hard at engendering an interesting and intellectual discussion on the great man’s works (I simply love this guy), but the personal attacks and criticisms I received were unbelievable, everything from being called a troll, to massaging people’s egos to reach the magical 1000 mark, to being too oily and friendly, etc, etc. In the end, I waved the white flag and surrendered, while attacks continued unabated.
That taught me the lesson that vigour and passion can sometimes get you in trouble.

Sorry about that...I think a lot of us have been there.

I suppose the best thing is to try not to take things people say on a message board too personally. Whenever you get blindsided by an outrageous blast of vicious nastiness, just remember that nine times out of ten, it's nothing at all to do with you-- it's all about your being a convenient punching bag for some unhappy sod to take out his own frustrations and miseries. Just keep trying to add value to the conversation and let the rest go...if things get too nasty, quit replying and put people in your filter file. If you don't respond, they usually get bored and move on to a more rewarding target. Though I must say it's a lot better around here than it ever was on the old boards.

Re. starting new threads--why let the bullies win? Go for it! The more the merrier.

if massive counterpoint isn't your thing...

Oh, but if really massively-massive counterpoint IS your thing, why not listen to Bach's organ works interspersed with variations by Max Reger? He owes so much to Bach, and really blows it out in a trippy way...here's a passage to give you a sense of it:

"Walter Frisch has gone so far as to suggest, quite strikingly, that "quantitatively, Reger had the greatest involvement with Bach of any composer since Bach himself." [...] Max Reger's work covers the compositional styles from baroque to those of the late romantic age developing them further into a very personal approach to 'panchromatic harmony'.

For the organist, Reger's oœuvre is a second high point in the history of organ literature. [...] Reger's music is deep and passionate; although Reger was known to greatly admire Bach, Beethoven and Brahms, he nevertheless charted new territory leading far into the 20th century and its harmonic innovations. Reger's music has been characterized as 'the artistic symbol of the religious' and as 'mystic' and 'ecstatic.' The composer's deep devotion leads to a joyful, although at times earnest, expression of spirituality transcending previously known boundaries."

Hope you like it...enjoy!

[gradus]

Mario, am I right in thinking that you play the piano? Could I suggest that you try the Keyboard Partitas. There are many fine performances on disc but relatively recent recordings by Anderszewski or Periah deliver the music with such innate understanding, wonderful technique and most importantly passion, that they may well become as irresistible to you as they are to me.

[Auferstehen2]

Eudaimonia, thanks for this – you really have made me feel much better. When are you going to visit our little island here in the Med? I’ve already met one message boarder, I’d love to meet another!

“ it's nothing at all to do with you-- it's all about your being a convenient punching bag for some unhappy sod to take out his own frustrations and miseries.”

How very true!

“why let the bullies win? Go for it! The more the merrier.”

Bullies or threads?

I have got some Bach organ music somewhere, including amazingly, the Prelude & Fugue BWV 552 “St Anne” (which rauschwerk mentions in message 9) coupled with BWV 532, both played by Simon Preston – better get to know these I think. I have Glenn Gould playing The Goldberg Variations which I really should get to know.

Best wishes,

Mario

[Auferstehen2]

Gradus,

I think I’d better set the record straight on this one – on the BBC messageboards two years ago, I confirmed that at the ripe old age of 58 (then), I was taking up the piano. Now at 60, I’ve reached maybe Grade 3 Practical and perhaps Grade 5/6 Theory (this harmony lark with Phrygian and Interrupted cadences, not to mention the old Picardy Third, I’m finding a little difficult to grasp).

I doubt that I’m able therefore to play any of his Partitas, although the syllabus for next year, should I pass this year’s exam in a month’s time, does include some of his simple Etudes.

We shall see,

Mario

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

hi Mario good to see you here ....

i am nuts about JSB, but of all his works the one that caaught my soul when i was very young [12] and still does, is the sixth Brandenburg Concerto; the timbre of the strings, the chase of the two leads, the sublime melody and harmony .... it is my deepest listening pleasure

my sister had a version by Klemperer with the Philharmonia on EMI that seems long unavailable .. and then there was an excellent set on Saga ..... now i have many versions on cd and mp3; one of my favourites is the version of the Sixth by Philip Picket and the New London Consort [available in mp3 dld on amazon]