Boulez 100

[silvestrione]

'Sur Incises' is very approachable and the only Boulez I listen to regularly these days. It's for three pianos, harps and keyboard-percussion, and is an aural delight.

I bought the first BBC 'Pli Selon Pli' on LP back in the 1970s (I thiink) and tried really hard with it, but had not heard it for years. Marvellous for the BBC to mount a performance with Brabbins (of course!), and there sounded like there was a decent audience.

I am eternally grateful for Boulez recordings of some of my favourite works, e.g. Messaien 'Chronochromie' (grabs you from the opening bars) and Birtwistle's 'The Triumph of Time' (ditto) and 'Earth Dances'.

I don't know if anyone here will have some thoughts, or what was said in the discussions yesterday, but what does one listen FOR in Boulez music? What is there to follow? Any structure? Nothing 'comes back', there is no sense a movement towards or away...I remember Edmund Rubbra reviewing a Boulez performance in The Listener and saying something similar, suggesting it was perhaps music that would work better with another dimension, e.g. accompanying a film.

[LMcD]

'Sur Incises' is very approachable and the only Boulez I listen to regularly these days. It's for three pianos, harps and keyboard-percussion, and is an aural delight.

I bought the first BBC 'Pli Selon Pli' on LP back in the 1970s (I thiink) and tried really hard with it, but had not heard it for years. Marvellous for the BBC to mount a performance with Brabbins (of course!), and there sounded like there was a decent audience.

I am eternally grateful for Boulez recordings of some of my favourite works, e.g. Messaien 'Chronochromie' (grabs you from the opening bars) and Birtwistle's 'The Triumph of Time' (ditto) and 'Earth Dances'.

I don't know if anyone here will have some thoughts, or what was said in the discussions yesterday, but what does one listen FOR in Boulez music? What is there to follow? Any structure? Nothing 'comes back', there is no sense a movement towards or away...I remember Edmund Rubbra reviewing a Boulez performance in The Listener and saying something similar, suggesting it was perhaps music that would work better with another dimension, e.g. accompanying a film.

I saw him conduct 'Pli Selon Pli' - which was still a work in progress - at a Prom in the late 1960s. A friend who worked at the BBC arranged for me to join her in a box, as they'd only sold 200 tickets by lunchtime on the day of the concert. If memory serves, the other work on the programme was Mahler's 5th.

[smittims]

Pli Selon Pli plus Mahler 5 would be a very long programme. When I saw him do it at the RFH in , I think, 1981, the first half was Webern op, 5 and his own Livre pour Cordes.

Mention of the original CBS LP reminds me that my acquaintence with his music dates from about 1970. I've always preferred his later works to his earlier ones, and I often feel the inclusion of a solo soprano voice is an impediment to my enjoyment .

I do wonder how content he was privately: He never sounded bery happy or at ease with life. Music wasn't going his way as he grew older, and though (like Elgar in his later life) although officially revered he was I think increasingly appearing to be a survivor of a previous way of life; maybe that's the fate of ageing young firebrands. He seems to have found the completion of new works more difficult, and so many of his later works are officially, at least, 'unfinished'.

I've been expecting a 'warts and all' biography to apppear. Maybe it's been banned, but I think if we knew more about the man we'd be able to understand his music better. I remember I did tentatively say something like this years ago on the old BBC board and it provoked an extremely irate retort from someone who claimed to have known him personally. When this happens I instinctively feel (what I would not have felt otherwise) that someone has something to hide.

[vinteuil]

[I]I think if we knew more about the man we'd be able to understand his music better.

As a general rule I am far from sure that knowing the person is the way to understand the works. Proust wrote at length how Sainte-Beuve's biographical approach was totally inappropriate as a way to understand the creative process or its results.

From my limited acquaintance with him in Paris in the early 1990s I would say the best summary was that of Alex Ross in the New Yorker - he was "affable, implacable, unknowable"


.

[Serial_Apologist]

I have heard it said that he was gay? Not that that should or would have impeded his social life or wellbeing of course, and I only mention it because no one else has here.

As for any difficulties in his music, these remain for me in works up to Pli selon pli, apart from Figures-doubles-prismes, which luckily I "got" on first hearing (on a broadcast which I taped). As for hearing his music in the wake of Webern, the sheer density, hiddenness and complexity rules that out for me. The closer sources in "the canon" (for me) are Debussy (who surfaces more and more the further one progresses), especially the Préludes and Jeux; Messiaen for the soundworld more than the procedure (I've always felt the more radical side of post-Turangalila Messiaen to have in many ways evolved part-courtesy of Boulez's own investigations into SE Asian musics and cultures), the Schoenberg of some of the "free atonal" works, especially Erwartung - (can anyone fail to notice the close similarities between the closing unearthly tremolando passages of both works?) and Varèse (especially apparent in the re-modelled Notations).

As for listener problems in finding repetition or direction in Boulez's music, it was axiomatic to his concept of atonality by definition as constituting the evaporation of ideas of tension and release associated with cadential movement and resolution - a matter he felt strongly that Schoenberg had failed to carry through in his own music - which I imagine Schoenberg would have justified in terms of historical continuity and keeping alive certain principles he felt valid regardless of time and era. There is repetition in his music - Boulez drew attention to its existence in Rituel in a general discussion on where was music going in the late 1980s.

One other common aspect with Schoenberg is a tendency to cram the greatest complexity and detailed abundance into the first half of any work. The dense thematic development of the first two movements of Schoenberg's Fourth Quartet give way to the tense solemnity of the third movement, in which the binding underlying thematic shaping of the whole surfaces so that one can go back and hear the foregoing afresh, so to speak, in post-anticipative light, and thence to the almost early Beethovenian clarity of the finale. Yesterday's wonderful performance of ...explosante fixe... (long version) made this parallel clear in terms of foregrounding and subordinating to clarify for the recipient in the way in which the music increasingly relaxes to allow the condensed matter to become disentangled so that one can hear the regularities along with archetypal rhythmic and even familiar melodic gestures.

[Bella Kemp]

I have heard it said that he was gay? Not that that should or would have impeded his social life or wellbeing of course, and I only mention it because no one else has here.

As for any difficulties in his music, these remain for me in works up to Pli selon pli, apart from Figures-doubles-prismes, which luckily I "got" on first hearing (on a broadcast which I taped). As for hearing his music in the wake of Webern, the sheer density, hiddenness and complexity rules that out for me. The closer sources in "the canon" (for me) are Debussy (who surfaces more and more the further one progresses), especially the Préludes and Jeux; Messiaen for the soundworld more than the procedure (I've always felt the more radical side of post-Turangalila Messiaen to have in many ways evolved part-courtesy of Boulez's own investigations into SE Asian musics and cultures), the Schoenberg of some of the "free atonal" works, especially Erwartung - (can anyone fail to notice the close similarities between the closing unearthly tremolando passages of both works?) and Varèse (especially apparent in the re-modelled Notations).

As for listener problems in finding repetition or direction in Boulez's music, it was axiomatic to his concept of atonality by definition as constituting the evaporation of ideas of tension and release associated with cadential movement and resolution - a matter he felt strongly that Schoenberg had failed to carry through in his own music - which I imagine Schoenberg would have justified in terms of historical continuity and keeping alive certain principles he felt valid regardless of time and era. There is repetition in his music - Boulez drew attention to its existence in Rituel in a general discussion on where was music going in the late 1980s.

One other common aspect with Schoenberg is a tendency to cram the greatest complexity and detailed abundance into the first half of any work. The dense thematic development of the first two movements of Schoenberg's Fourth Quartet give way to the tense solemnity of the third movement, in which the binding underlying thematic shaping of the whole surfaces so that one can go back and hear the foregoing afresh, so to speak, in post-anticipative light, and thence to the almost early Beethovenian clarity of the finale. Yesterday's wonderful performance of ...explosante fixe... (long version) made this parallel clear in terms of foregrounding and subordinating to clarify for the recipient in the way in which the music increasingly relaxes to allow the condensed matter to become disentangled so that one can hear the regularities along with archetypal rhythmic and even familiar melodic gestures.

Thanks for posting, Serial Apologist. This is very insightful, and I will return to these works with fresh ears.

[kindofblue]

I've very much enjoyed listening to yesterday's programmes on - of course! - BBC Sounds, and think the whole day was thoughtfully put together. This thread too has been fascinating.

[oliver sudden]

I have heard it said that he was gay? Not that that should or would have impeded his social life or wellbeing of course, and I only mention it because no one else has here.

Another thing he has in common with Ravel…his private life was, er, private. There are rumours of various kinds from his relatively early life. It was widely assumed that the man who was his valet for decades was something else as well, but… well, watch the last bit of this and make up your own mind if you feel that your mind needs making up! (I admit I don’t feel that mine does.)

https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/115573-000-A/pierre-boulez-towards-the-unknown/

[oliver sudden]

I do wonder how content he was privately: He never sounded bery happy or at ease with life. Music wasn't going his way as he grew older, and though (like Elgar in his later life) although officially revered he was I think increasingly appearing to be a survivor of a previous way of life; maybe that's the fate of ageing young firebrands. He seems to have found the completion of new works more difficult, and so many of his later works are officially, at least, 'unfinished'.

I’m not sure he was particularly unhappy. He might have been writing yesterday’s music in later life but I don’t imagine he had a big problem with that and he certainly had no shortage of performers or performances. He had his pick of conducting repertoire with the best orchestras on the planet. He did a lot of work with younger musicians especially in the context of summer schools, in Paris and then Lucerne. I attended one in Paris in 1999—it was certainly an extraordinary experience for us but I can’t imagine he didn’t get something out of being surrounded by capable young musicians hanging off his every word and gesture. (One of my favourite memories of all is the first tutti rehearsal of explosante-fixe with him after various sectionals conducted by EIC players telling us gleefully ‘Boulez vous massacrera !’ Stuff and nonsense. Within about a minute of the start of the initial run-through he had a great big smile and so did we.)

[smittims]

Many interesting comments here. I remain convinced that, if and when we know more about his private life, we shall understand his music better. When I think of the increase of enjoyment and satisfaction of the music of Elgar, Vaughan Williams and John Ireland I 've had from reading about them as men, ad Ernest Ansermet's trenchant remark that to appreciate Debussy's music ' one must begin with the man', I'm sure this is true of Boulez also.

No-one values privacy more than I , especially today, but I do think Boulez took it to the point of secrecy. He seems to have wanted us to believe his music was a sort of detached artefact rather than anything dependent on human emotion.

There is evidence he was gay (an anecdote by Virgil Thomson which may, of course, be apocryphal) but I thought it was the English who were supposed to be reticent and shy about sex . However,I don't mind if we never find out about that.

[Quarky]

I
As for any difficulties in his music, these remain for me in works up to Pli selon pli, apart from Figures-doubles-prismes, which luckily I "got" on first hearing (on a broadcast which I taped). As for hearing his music in the wake of Webern, the sheer density, hiddenness and complexity rules that out for me. The closer sources in "the canon" (for me) are Debussy (who surfaces more and more the further one progresses), especially the Préludes and Jeux; Messiaen for the soundworld more than the procedure (I've always felt the more radical side of post-Turangalila Messiaen to have in many ways evolved part-courtesy of Boulez's own investigations into SE Asian musics and cultures), the Schoenberg of some of the "free atonal" works, especially Erwartung - (can anyone fail to notice the close similarities between the closing unearthly tremolando passages of both works?) and Varèse (especially apparent in the re-modelled Notations).
.

Much further listening is required on my part before getting to grips with Boulez, a highly intelligent nut to crack. However I agree with your comments on Debussy and Messiaen. After all, Boulez was French and studied with Messiaen.
Nevertheless Martyn Brabbins mentioned John Cage in respect of Pli Selon Pli, and Joseph K went into Jazz "I've mentioned it before but I am reminded of some of Miles Davis' music, specifically Bitches Brew."
And Postcards from Paris.......

[HighlandDougie]

One of my favourite memories of all is the first tutti rehearsal of explosante-fixe with him after various sectionals conducted by EIC players telling us gleefully ‘Boulez vous massacrera !’ Stuff and nonsense. Within about a minute of the start of the initial run-through he had a great big smile and so did we.

And one of my favourite musical experiences was the first UK performance of explosante-fixe at the 1994 Edinburgh Festival - in, of all places, the Playhouse Theatre (a large former cinema dating from the 1920s). Boulez conducting with the EIC. I remember various other Boulez/EIC performances in Edinburgh and London with much pleasure.

I second (or third) the recommendation of the Arte documentary. F-X Roth comes across as someone one might want (à la JEG) to slap after a while - with Pierre-Laurent Aimard running him a close second - but fascinating. A great reminder of what we lost with Boulez's death.

[silvestrione]

I listened to explosante-fixe twice last night and, boy, am I getting it! All of it really, but the last section...gosh, I didn't know he had written anything quite like that (or, had forgotten...I listened to Domaines too, and remembered I once had an LP of that)

[oliver sudden]

Mnay interesting comments here. I remain convinced that, if and when we know more about his private life, we shall understand his music better. When I think of the increase of enjoyment and satisfaction of the music of Elgar, Vaughan Williams and John Ireland I 've had from reading about them as men, ad Ernest Ansermet's trenchant remark that to appreciate Debussy's music ' one must begin with the man', I'm sure this is true of Boulez also.

No-one values privacy more than I , especially today, but I do think RBoulez took it to the point of secrecy. He seems to have wanted us to believe his music was a sort of detached artefact rather than anything dependent on human emotion.

There is evidence he was gay (an anecdote by Virgil Thomson which may, of course, be apocryphal) but I thought it was the English who were supposed to be reticent and shy about sex . However,I don't mind if we never find out about that.

At a tangent: I was listening the other day to a late interview with Claude Samuel where the subject of juvenilia came up. Boulez maintained that nothing in his early works was of interest because it was so derivative, but there was a little humming and hawing on the subject of the piano Notations, which he was going to keep locked away but eventually he decided they had to come out because he had started doing orchestrations of them and it was only fair that people could see where those pieces came from since it was quite an interesting business how the little miniatures were transformed into the much bigger, er, still miniatures.

So there’s a realm where Boulez maintained there was nothing of interest but ultimately we will be able to make up our own minds because all this stuff is preserved for posterity.

I don’t know anyone who asked him about his private life. I imagine that if anyone had asked and he’d seen fit to answer he would have said that it’s of no interest. Of course there we’re not going to find out for ourselves (unless Hans Messner decides to tell all once he passes on himself…) and I’m fine with that.

[smittims]

Thanks, oliver. Joan Peyser's book, although 50 years out of date now of course, reveals some details of his early life, but she found he clammed up when she asked him about it. One nugget is that he was the second Pierre Boulez , the first being an elder brother who died in infancy. And your comments, , Doctor Freud...?

Also, like may young men who survived the Third Reich (Stockhausen also) he felt a need to clear the past and start again. I think this may explain his apparent 'year zero' stance.