FNiMN

[french frank]

I tried Music Map a couple of times in the faint hope it would live up to its blurb, even if only in part, but, as with Inside Music previously I was disappointed. Shan't try again. What I find particularly annoying is that is is obviously a management decision to produce a second-rate programme, since CotW and EMS still show how it should be done, and R3 has suitable people to deliver - if they are allowed to use their skills and knowledge, which they so evidently aren't.

This is what I feared. There is potential for introducing excellent new music programmes, Inside Music and Music Map (and the short-lived Choir and Organ) but they aren't for the already - to some degree - informed (classical) listener wanting to learn more. It was the same with the lurch in Discovering Music down to Charles Hazlewood's Discovering Music, with his own band talking to a live audience who could ask questions. One R3 manager swore it was aimed at the same audience as the Stephen Johnson et al programme. If he really believed that he was in the wrong job. As it didn't work as intended it was dropped completely.

But the harsh fact is that if you tolerate, even quite enjoy, Breakfast, Essential Classics, Night Tracks &c, I'm afraid you have to accept the Listening Service, the new Saturday morning show, Classical Live instead of the lunchtime concert, Afternoon Concert as now is, and so on. They are all a package aimed at the 'broader audience', all part of the same direction.

[oddoneout]

This is what I feared. There is potential for introducing excellent new music programmes, Inside Music and Music Map (and the short-lived Choir and Organ) but they aren't for the already - to some degree - informed (classical) listener wanting to learn more. It was the same with the lurch in Discovering Music down to Charles Hazlewood's Discovering Music, with his own band talking to a live audience who could ask questions. One R3 manager swore it was aimed at the same audience as the Stephen Johnson et al programme. If he really believed that he was in the wrong job. As it didn't work as intended it was dropped completely.

But the harsh fact is that if you tolerate, even quite enjoy, Breakfast, Essential Classics, Night Tracks &c, I'm afraid you have to accept the Listening Service, the new Saturday morning show, Classical Live instead of the lunchtime concert, Afternoon Concert as now is, and so on. They are all a package aimed at the 'broader audience', all part of the same direction.

If those programmes had done/do "what they said on the can", then even already informed listeners might/could have found something to interest them at some point - no-one knows everything. The insights that a practicising musician can bring to what may be familiar works(Inside Music) can greatly add to the enjoyment and understanding of those works. Music Map is rather more vague, but again if done properly might provide some different views of the well-known. That was what I had hoped for, but was disappointed to be faced simply with a variation of the house-style chat'n'bits formula.
BTW Classical Live has engulfed both Lunchtime Concert(except for the Monday Wigmore Hall one) and Afternoon Concert, thereby creating a blanket misleading title(in particular as far as definitions of "live" go), instead of just the previous misnamed AC.

[AuntDaisy]

I would neither have liked it nor disliked it! If I saw what the programme was I wouldn't have gone in the first place. Currently having to elevate my foot at regular intervals, I've been lying down listening to various versions of K488. When it finishes, I get up

How's your foot? Hope K488 proved to be soothing.

[eighthobstruction]

....I'm very surprised that there has yet to be a - Jackson is Nutty/idiot - type of thread....his changes have made a profound difference to my R3 listening experience....Music Map generally pap (the one I listened full of unexceptional cut and paste CFM stuff)....change of time (+ it too being - Pap) and more time for This Classical Life ....etc etc etc

....¬¬"/<*¬^!¬ *{>^^¬ !!!

[LMcD]

If those programmes had done/do "what they said on the can", then even already informed listeners might/could have found something to interest them at some point - no-one knows everything. The insights that a practicising musician can bring to what may be familiar works(Inside Music) can greatly add to the enjoyment and understanding of those works. Music Map is rather more vague, but again if done properly might provide some different views of the well-known. That was what I had hoped for, but was disappointed to be faced simply with a variation of the house-style chat'n'bits formula.
BTW Classical Live has engulfed both Lunchtime Concert(except for the Monday Wigmore Hall one) and Afternoon Concert, thereby creating a blanket misleading title(in particular as far as definitions of "live" go), instead of just the previous misnamed AC.

Dear Sir/Madam/Miss/Mrs/Ms
I can assure you that everything on Classical Live is live, or was at one time.
Yours faithfully
Albert Ironside (Personal Assistant to Amelia Ingoldsthorpe)

[smittims]

Loved it!

[oddoneout]

....I'm very surprised that there has yet to be a - Jackson is Nutty/idiot - type of thread....his changes have made a profound difference to my R3 listening experience....Music Map generally pap (the one I listened full of unexceptional cut and paste CFM stuff)....change of time (+ it too being - Pap) and more time for This Classical Life ....etc etc etc

....¬¬"/<*¬^!¬ *{>^^¬ !!!

Arguably don't need a separate thread, there's been plenty of general, and more pointed, negative comment, delivered in for3 style in various threads. I think it has reached the stage now though where there doesn't seem much point in wasting time or effort, directly or otherwise. That's certainly the case for me - I now listen to very little R3, many days(verging on most) not at all once Breakfast has finished. Change of times means I miss things I used to listen to.
Jackson can't claim all of that loss of listening time, and in any case wouldn't acknowledge it, as his default position is Sounds. I had stopped EC, given up on the wrongly titled Afternoon Concert some time ago, and have found only a handful of evening concerts I wanted to hear since last year, but he has definitely been the last straw with the removal of the lunchtime concerts and time changes to the 2 or 3 remaining programmes I do want to hear.

[french frank]

If those programmes had done/do "what they said on the can", then even already informed listeners might/could have found something to interest them at some point - no-one knows everything. The insights that a practicising musician can bring to what may be familiar works(Inside Music) can greatly add to the enjoyment and understanding of those works.

I agree entirely. I'm just not sure whether on the one hand they didn't achieve what they intended or whether it was never intended. I think it would be very difficult (impossible?) to serve both kinds of listener. Radio 3 seems to have chosen to try to produce programmes aimed at the broad, not necessarily informed, not particularly wanting to be informed, audience. This leaves those who may have varying levels of knowledge (I would place myself at the bottom end!), but who want informed analysis, totally ignored. This used to be the raison d'être of R3. Why will no one acknowledge this? Perhaps it's time to relaunch FoR3?

[oddoneout]

I agree entirely. I'm just not sure whether on the one hand they didn't achieve what they intended or whether it was never intended. I think it would be very difficult (impossible?) to serve both kinds of listener. Radio 3 seems to have chosen to try to produce programmes aimed at the broad, not necessarily informed, not particularly wanting to be informed, audience. This leaves those who may have varying levels of knowledge (I would place myself at the bottom end!), but who want informed analysis, totally ignored. This used to be the raison d'être of R3. Why will no one acknowledge this? Perhaps it's time to relaunch FoR3?

I suspect management considers such efforts achieved what was intended by virtue of just telling themselves that is the case, and looking at the tickboxes crossed off - on the basis of no real information probably.
In terms of serving different audiences, I have a bit more faith in the existence of natural curiosity. If a factual programme is well constructed and well delivered then it stands a chance of being of interest to those with and without particular knowledge of the subject matter, even if at different levels. By the same token something that is aimed at a less knowledgeable audience doesn't have to be(in fact definitely shouldn't be) patronising. On TV, Newsround was the prime example of serving two audiences well - children and adults; indeed adults watched to keep up with the topical issues of the day. On R3, it was Pied Piper that served both well.
There are still people around who could deliver such programmes for R3, but so long as management isn't interested it won't happen. They will continue to hide behind the various whines of "elitist", "exclusion", "not what listeners want". The need to touch forelocks, kowtow to ignoramuses, and tick the right boxes has to take priority, and in the process knocks genuine creativeness(cf gimmicks) out the window. If the will(political, financial) and passion to run an intelligent and genuinely worthwhile station making the most of the richness that is music and the arts is missing, the appointment of controllers such as Jackson, who are not on that wavelength, but can talk the talk to the people of influence , is inevitable.

[french frank]

How's your foot? Hope K488 proved to be soothing.

The foot is improving, thank you. The point almost relevant to this thread is that I listen to music when I am not doing anything else, whereas others seem to listen most of the time when they are doing other things. So I listened to the Emersons, Mendelssohn SQ No 1 in the bath last night. I wait until I'm not doing anything and then I listen to some music. Weird!

[hmvman]

The foot is improving, thank you. The point almost relevant to this thread is that I listen to music when I am not doing anything else, whereas others seem to listen most of the time when they are doing other things. So I listened to the Emersons, Mendelssohn SQ No 1 in the bath last night. I wait until I'm not doing anything and then I listen to some music. Weird!

You're not alone in that, ff, and I don't think it weird. When I listen to music I like just to listen. Actually, I find I can't listen and do other things at the same time unless those other things are repetitive and/or don't take a lot of mental concentration.

[AuntDaisy]

Glad to hear things are getting better.

Très bizarre - in the bath! F&S springs to mind

I have to admit to doing other things - the music (usually) helps me concentrate & stay sane while working.

[LMcD]

The foot is improving, thank you. The point almost relevant to this thread is that I listen to music when I am not doing anything else, whereas others seem to listen most of the time when they are doing other things. So I listened to the Emersons, Mendelssohn SQ No 1 in the bath last night. I wait until I'm not doing anything and then I listen to some music. Weird!

My only extended period of listening starts when whenever I tune into, and ends when I switch off. Breakfast. (Sunday to Friday).
I'm not doing anything else while listening to the Wigmore Hall lunchtime concerts, JRR, FNIMN, Private Passions* or Night Tracks.
* Preparation and consumption of my trademark Bacon Butties isn't distracting

[eighthobstruction]

Arguably don't need a separate thread, there's been plenty of general, and more pointed, negative comment, delivered in for3 style in various threads. I think it has reached the stage now though where there doesn't seem much point in wasting time or effort, directly or otherwise. That's certainly the case for me - I now listen to very little R3, many days(verging on most) not at all once Breakfast has finished. Change of times means I miss things I used to listen to.
Jackson can't claim all of that loss of listening time, and in any case wouldn't acknowledge it, as his default position is Sounds. I had stopped EC, given up on the wrongly titled Afternoon Concert some time ago, and have found only a handful of evening concerts I wanted to hear since last year, but he has definitely been the last straw with the removal of the lunchtime concerts and time changes to the 2 or 3 remaining programmes I do want to hear.

Yes no point wasting time on last straws....saves me a dyslexic 4 page double sider (hand written) or unblocking my dried up printer ( surprising how stuff becomes so quickly obsolete these days - giving my DVDs to charity at mo' bit by bit)....

Yes I will miss Inside Music...................This Classical Life - Catherine Bott one week Neil Tennant the next...Camels to the left of me, Camels to the right; straw all about....

[french frank]

As they push more and more content (of various kinds) on to Radio 3, so it gradually replaces R3 content and Radio 3 listeners move off. Lo! an expanded and extended Radio 2 is born. The many hours of short works, complete or not, lasting under 10 minutes (often considerably less) are for me a definition of 'trivial' or 'trifling'. But market forces: if that's what 'people' want, and most people are happy with that seemingly, it's the way of the world.