FNiMN

[french frank]

It's nice to know that I'm appreciated!

It's nothing personal though!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Possibly you can only describe a 'typical listener' if there is only one listener (if they could be considered a 'type' on their own). Generalisations, though, have their value and there is little point in objecting to them on the grounds that 'it isn't true in my case'. My surmise would be that only a minority of those who listened to R2's FNiMN would have been familiar with the Brahms (or even with Brahms), though the percentage probably increased when the programme transferred to R3. It's still all about R3's managerial audience manipulation. They value any listener who will listen to FNiMN much more highly than an R3 regular who finds it unappealing.

I think your surmise is plain wrong. When FNIMN was on Radio 2 I was an occasional listener and not just on the two or three times I worked on it . It was a decent enough alternative if the Friday concert on R3 didn’t appeal. The BBC Concert orchestra played last nights German Requiem - so that’s another 100 “crossover “ listeners as they are the backbone of FNIMN. Oh yes and there’s Brahms himself - a lover of light music - who quoted on an autograph of Johan Strauss the first few bars of the Blue Danube with the words “unfortunately not written by Brahms.” The Blue Danube is standard FNIMN fare.
As OOO points out like the Mozart Requiem the Brahms is performed by choral societies up and down the UK - they are full of light (and serious ) classical music lovers as well as being lovers of song in general. In short it’s highly likely that a significant proportion of the audience for FNIMN on both R2 and R3 would be familiar with Brahms.

[french frank]

I think your surmise is plain wrong.

Mine was a mere surmise, yours is an opinion (based on what?). You say I'm wrong, plain wrong in fact, but you can't prove it. As I said, without carrying out a poll neither of us knows (so I wouldn't say I thought you were plain wrong). I recognise ooo's point that there is an 'overlap' between different audiences, if indeed there is such a thing 'an audience' with identical tastes. There's very little on which I feel confident about asserting the total accuracy I know (for a fact) that I used to find a lot to listen to on R3 and now any highlights which I would enjoy are so dotted about - and few - that I don't find it worth doing the research to find R3's offer when there are alternatives available at times that suit me.

'Dumbing down' reflects the relationship between a service/product and an individual 'consumer'. So if I say R3 is 'dumbed down' I'm stating a fact: I need something that tests my intelligence more than the presenter-led programming which now provides the bulk of R3's scheduling - which seldom announces in advance what's to be played. Changes to R3 have wrought changes in its audience. Some people are now attracted to the station where they weren't before, some long-standing listeners welcome the changes, other long-standing listeners have their tastes modified and their tolerances extended, some simply give up listening. I'd be prepared to argue that R3 doesn't value classical music in the same way that it used to. For me that's the key factor.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I’m not offering an opinion on “dumbing down.” Mainly because I agree that R3 has done so. I’m simply saying that your “surmise “that’s there’s little overlap between the audience for FNIMN and for serious music like Brahms is wrong. It’s wrong in my personal case and in the experience of friends of mine who are interested in both .You seem to have extended my very narrow point into the much wider issue of dumbing down.

As it happens I have seen past research on the crossover audience between heavy R3 listeners and the audience for the light classical and jazz programmes on R2 in the days when the latter ran such programmes. A surprisingly high number of “heavy” R3 listeners listened to those R2 progs particularly when. R3 went the full Glock . So much so that there was genuine concern over “poaching .” So we have to ask ourselves has the audience for “serious “ classical music suddenly lost a taste for the music of Strauss , Coates, and Rodgers ? There’s absolutely no evidence they have .

[french frank]

I’m not offering an opinion on “dumbing down.” Mainly because I agree that R3 has done so. I’m simply saying that your “surmise “that’s there’s little overlap between the audience for FNIMN and for serious music like Brahms is wrong. It’s wrong in my personal case and in the experience of friends of mine who are interested in both .You seem to have extended my very narrow point into the much wider issue of dumbing down.

Mine was indeed a post that conflated two unrelated points for which I apologise as it confused the argument. But the point I was really taking issue with was - and is - your insistence that my surmise was wrong on the basis of your personal anecdotal experience. One needs stronger evidence than that to say I'm wrong.

And, on looking again, you have misrepresented what I was saying. If I had 'surmised' that there is "little overlap between the audience for FNIMN and for serious music like Brahms", I would have agreed with you as I have no idea of the size of the overlap. I said a minority which may be as large as 49%, but I was perfectly clear in that post that without a poll on the subject neither us can know. If you think I was plain wrong, you are presumably declaring as a fact that a majority of the Radio 2 FNiMN listeners were familiar enough with the music of Brahms to declare they 'liked' it?

Postscript: OED Surmise. 'To form a notion that the thing in question may be so, on slight grounds or without proof; to infer conjecturally.'

[LMcD]

I’m not offering an opinion on “dumbing down.” Mainly because I agree that R3 has done so. I’m simply saying that your “surmise “that’s there’s little overlap between the audience for FNIMN and for serious music like Brahms is wrong. It’s wrong in my personal case and in the experience of friends of mine who are interested in both .You seem to have extended my very narrow point into the much wider issue of dumbing down.

As it happens I have seen past research on the crossover audience between heavy R3 listeners and the audience for the light classical and jazz programmes on R2 in the days when the latter ran such programmes. A surprisingly high number of “heavy” R3 listeners listened to those R2 progs particularly when. R3 went the full Glock . So much so that there was genuine concern over “poaching .” So we have to ask ourselves has the audience for “serious “ classical music suddenly lost a taste for the music of Strauss , Coates, and Rodgers ? There’s absolutely no evidence they have .

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Well, I certainly haven't lost my taste for their music !

[french frank]

As it happens I have seen past research on the crossover audience between heavy R3 listeners and the audience for the light classical and jazz programmes on R2 in the days when the latter ran such programmes. A surprisingly high number of “heavy” R3 listeners listened to those R2 progs particularly when. R3 went the full Glock .

Coming back to this, did the evidence clarify whether a "heavy" R3 listener was one who listened to a lot of R3 (= an undiscriminating listener) or one who listened for fewer hours but as far as R3 was concerned only listened to the concerts and programmes broadcasting full-length classical music (i.e heavier in the sense of more demanding in terms of sustained attentiveness)?

And incidentally it was LMcD, not me, who said, "It's not likely that a significant proportion of listeners who used to enjoy FNiMN on Radio 2 would be familiar with the German Requiem". So when you said, "In short it’s highly likely that a significant proportion of the audience for FNIMN on both R2 and R3 would be familiar with Brahms", the two of you are at odds with each other, not with me.

So much so that there was genuine concern over “poaching .” So we have to ask ourselves has the audience for “serious “ classical music suddenly lost a taste for the music of Strauss , Coates, and Rodgers ? There’s absolutely no evidence they have .

'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.'

[LMcD]

Coming back to this, did the evidence clarify whether a "heavy" R3 listener was one who listened to a lot of R3 (= an undiscriminating listener) or one who listened for fewer hours but as far as R3 was concerned only listened to the concerts and programmes broadcasting full-length classical music (i.e heavier in the sense of more demanding in terms of sustained attentiveness)?

And incidentally it was LMcD, not me, who said, "It's not likely that a significant proportion of listeners who used to enjoy FNiMN on Radio 2 would be familiar with the German Requiem". So when you said, "In short it’s highly likely that a significant proportion of the audience for FNIMN on both R2 and R3 would be familiar with Brahms", the two of you are at odds with each other, not with me.



'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.'

Well - that's US told, then!
Almost time to tune into SC4 for this evening's URC match, which will be followed by my weekly visit to the quarrelsome Ashworth family on TPTV - how typical is THAT of a Radio 2 or Radio 3 listener, I don't bother to ask myself !

[Historian]

At the risk of missing the point of the recent discussion, this was not a replacement for FMIMN but a special programme for Easter. The 'Easter at Kings' Festival has been going since at least 2005 and the concerts have, I believe, been broadcast every year (not during COVID) since then, although not always live. So, it may be that some listeners tuned in and didn't get what they expected, but others might well have been looking forward to a more traditional evening concert. Hopefully both sets will have enjoyed what they heard.

[french frank]

Well - that's US told, then!
Almost time to tune into SC4 for this evening's URC match, which will be followed by my weekly visit to the quarrelsome Ashworth family on TPTV - how typical is THAT of a Radio 2 or Radio 3 listener, I don't bother to ask myself !

As all too frequently, The Unanswered Question(s) ...

[Roger Webb]

Easter week has just about the best music all year on R3 .......... Fille Du Regiment............

Europe goes one better for their Saturday night 'Easter' opera with Martinu's 'The Greek Passion' though.

https://www.br.de/radio/live/br-klassik/programm/2025-04-19/3635234