Missa Solemnis - Live in Concert 6.6.15

[ardcarp]

I am so often disappointed by the chorus-work in this (and in the final mov't of the 9th). Last night's outing by the Halle was no exception. It is taxing, yes, but the soprano line struggled in varying degrees with the high tessitura; and the whole choir seemed to lack stamina. It seems an inherent weakness of big amateur choruses, whichever fine orchestra they are attached to and however fine the conductor...in this case Mark Elder whom I admire greatly. Does anyone know of a recording where the chorus copes 100% ? What the work really needs is for half a dozen professional chamber choirs to join forces, thereby packing the punch and the accuracy.

[gradus]

Have you heard the Klemperer/New Philharmonia recording? The chorus master was Wilhelm Pitz who had a considerable reputation and I think the singing of the New Philharmonia Chorus is thrillingly good. I don't know about 100% but the music is never short-changed by them and in some places eg the Gloria, they are phenomenal.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Beethoven's frequent writing for voices at the top of their range for long stretches of time does make for wearying Live performances when choirs are pitted against huge orchestras playing modern instruments. The intensity I think the work needs is more easily lost in these circumstances - using the instruments that Beethoven had heard in the ensemble sizes he knew, the speeds he directed in the score (and, perhaps, at the lower pitch of his time) restores that sense of struggle and achievement I believe the composer imagined. I dislike Gardiner's recordings of the Beethoven Symphonies, and was astonished and delighted to discover that his DG recording of the Missa Solemnis is a miraculous performance; my ideal recording of the work. His later recording (on Sol Deo Gloria) is taken from a Live concert and, if anything, is even more astonishing. The Monteverdi Choir is a professional ensemble of about seventy voices.

For "modern"-ish performance methods, it's frequently better to go for a studio recording, where the choir is allowed to rest (often overnight or longer) between movements and thus help prevent their voices "giving up". Klemperer/Pitts' Philharmonia choir acquit themselves admirably in that respect as does (my own favourite of the non-HIPP recordings) the Vienna Singverein in Karajan's recordings. (Especially the 1966 with Janowitz, Ludwig, Wunderlich and Berry as soloists - soppy twit that I am, Michel Schwalbe's solo coupled with Janowitz in the Benedictus always expands me to tears of joy!)

Petrushka mentions Haitink's latest Live recording on another Thread - he makes it sound very intriguing and tempting.

[Cockney Sparrow]

Having sung in the chorus for a performance, and found it a challenging experience (but with some satisfaction, in retrospect) I was interested in this thread:

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?7123-BaL-29-12-12-Beethoven-s-Missa-Solemnis&highlight=Solemnis+Oslo

I knew the Klemperer from vinyl (only version for years) and presumably a not too sophisticated transfer onto early CD where the choral climaxes were congested (OTOH I have better speakers now, I should listen again!)

I do admire Herreweghe's recordings and on an initial hearing (headphones, on a train journey) had no issues and the bass problem referred to did not occur to me. Again, I should listen again as my speakers handle bass very cleanly.

I got a copy of the Oslo (Nimbus?) recording and it sounded to me as though I was listening from the entrance lobby - ok - perhaps that is a little unfair, but the choir sound in particular is not very vivid. The Solti live LPO label I have sampled on Google Play Music All Access and Naxos Music Library (NML via my public library). The latter sounded the best but again in the climaxes the sound was distorted (to be fair this recording is of interest for the live interpretation and the soloists -if anyone can assure me the choral climaxes are undistorted on the CD, I would be willing to try it.....)

[ardcarp]

Thanks! I'll try the Gardiner and the Monteverdi Choir when the piggy bank has been topped up a bit. The said choir varies in size according to what they're performing. I guess Jeggers must have summoned all the troops for this. I think I used to own Klemperer on vinyl, but it must have been one of the ones that got pruned.

[jean]

The said choir varies in size according to what they're performing.

And at that size, they're not all professionals!

[Stanley Stewart]

I was also disappointed by Saturday's broadcast which remained earthbound for much of its duration. Yesterday, I sought solace in a DVD performance, shrewdy directed by Michael Beyer, with unfussy well- judged focus on the right time for wide shots, or close-up emphasis on orchestral players, soloists or choir. A Unitel Classica DVD filmed at the sumptuous Semperoper, Dresden, with its Staatskapelle Orchestra/Christian Thielemann, on 13/14 Feb 2010. The conductor "conjured up the gigantic cosmos of the Missa with such lightness and grace that its mystery seemed to reveal itself," wrote the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. No less remarkable was the fabulously homogenous solo quartet formed of Krassimira Stoyanova, Elina Garanca, Michael Schade and Franz-Josef Selig - the soloists placed on the forestage on either side of the conductor.

I find that even a modest Sony 32" TV with hi-fi input delivers first rate sound as a HD print enhances the image. Access to subtitles or respective headings: Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei and end credits, too, add to the pleasure. The concentrated performance is given without the intrusion of applause at any stage and this seems 'right' and deeply affecting after the rapture and surging beauty of the music. "A plea for inner and outer peace".

[teamsaint]

And at that size, they're not all professionals!

AFAIK, they are all professional singers, and employed by the choir on that basis.

http://www.monteverdi.co.uk/news-reviews/concert-reviews/136-the-20-greatest-choirs-gramophone-magazine

I would assume they are paid by the engagement , rather than salaried, though.

[richardfinegold]

Having sung in the chorus for a performance, and found it a challenging experience (but with some satisfaction, in retrospect) I was interested in this thread:

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?7123-BaL-29-12-12-Beethoven-s-Missa-Solemnis&highlight=Solemnis+Oslo

I knew the Klemperer from vinyl (only version for years) and presumably a not too sophisticated transfer onto early CD where the choral climaxes were congested (OTOH I have better speakers now, I should listen again!)

I do admire Herreweghe's recordings and on an initial hearing (headphones, on a train journey) had no issues and the bass problem referred to did not occur to me. Again, I should listen again as my speakers handle bass very cleanly.

I got a copy of the Oslo (Nimbus?) recording and it sounded to me as though I was listening from the entrance lobby - ok - perhaps that is a little unfair, but the choir sound in particular is not very vivid. The Solti live LPO label I have sampled on Google Play Music All Access and Naxos Music Library (NML via my public library). The latter sounded the best but again in the climaxes the sound was distorted (to be fair this recording is of interest for the live interpretation and the soloists -if anyone can assure me the choral climaxes are undistorted on the CD, I would be willing to try it.....)

Solti made a studio recording with the CSO and the CSO Chorus, which under Margaret Hillis had very high standards. I haven't heard it for years but I would be surprised if the studio recording reflected signs of Choral Fatigue.
I also remember hearing the Atlanta SO and Chorus under Robert Shaw, another group that would surprise me if the Chorus slacked. I don't remember if that was a concert broadcast or a recording.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

AFAIK, they are all professional singers, and employed by the choir on that basis.

- This was also how I understood it when I posted.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'll try the Gardiner and the Monteverdi Choir when the piggy bank has been topped up a bit.

The piggy need not lose much weight if you choose the earlier, studio recording, don't mind shopping through Amazon and aren't averse to second-hand items:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B0000057DP/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used

(I've used zoverstocks frquently, and have found them to be very reliable: "Very Good" usually means the CD is in excellent condition, but some "ageing" on the case and/or booklet.)

[kuligin]

I wonder if any other board member actually attended this performance and if so what they felt. In the flesh I thought it was an excellent performance although I can see the advantages of a smaller professional choir over a huge amateur choir. The Halle Chorus are much improved in recent years, but HIP they are not.

I wonder if the BBC could have influenced what was heard over the airwaves, there were 30 plus microphones all over the place, and of recent performances which were subsequently broadcast from this venue did not give a fair impression of the performance as heard from row F of the stalls.

[ardcarp]

Good to hear from someone who was there, and glad you enjoyed it. Microphones are certainly searching and clinical!

but HIP they are not.

I certainly wasn't criticizing the choir for lack of HIP-ness. It's just that high notes had to be a bit screeched by some, and the tell-tale of tired voices is that having reached a high note they tumble down the scale afterwards in a none-too- accurate way. Maybe I'm just picky!!!

[teamsaint]

Telegraph review very keen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalconcertreviews/11657775/Missa-Solemnis-HalleElder-review-a-towering-perfromance.html

[jayne lee wilson]

Thanks! I'll try the Gardiner and the Monteverdi Choir when the piggy bank has been topped up a bit. The said choir varies in size according to what they're performing. I guess Jeggers must have summoned all the troops for this. I think I used to own Klemperer on vinyl, but it must have been one of the ones that got pruned.

The booklets go into some detail: the 1989 All Saints' recording on DG Archiv has a choir of 36 (12-8-8-8); the 2012 Barbican one on SDG, 45 (13-12-9-11).

I adore both JEG's recordings, even though, like fhg, I often have more than a few reservations about his classical orchestral albums. The earlier Missa tends towards beauty and intimacy, balanced and controlled; the later live one, warmth intensity and impact...

"From the heart" indeed, and this work is very close to my heart; always playing somewhere in the back of my mind. - it's an iconic piece for me. But after JEG, I find it impossible to listen to larger-scale performances now. An alternative quick-and-dramatic approach, but with a larger chorus (23-22-20-21) is David Zinman with the Zurich Tonhalle forces, very well recorded on Arte Nova (Gramophone, JS, 7/2002). At 65'57, even quicker than JEG!

Here's a longer comparison of the two JEG readings...

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?9998-JEG-s-new-Missa-Solemnis-Barbican-live-on-SDG&highlight=Missa+Solemnis