David Matthews SYMPHONY NO. 8 First Performance 17/04/15

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I have also listened to a small part of a quartet by your good self for contrast. In the early 60s I attended "Invitation Concerts" in BBC Maida Vale studios and sometimes there were string quartets and sometimes the music was not Mozart , Beethoven etc. but was modern. So you can imagine that to my untutored ear there was a sense of "I've been here before". How many years is it ? 50 ish?

Ah! My apologies, clive - but I am not actually the composer Brian Ferneyhough, merely a huge admirer. (It all dates back to the old BBC messageboards - when I first joined those, it seemed that everyone had a nom-de-web, and I got the idea that it was a compulsory condition for joining those 'boards. I have grown rather fond of my cybername.)

The real Ferneyhough would not have resorted to the "cutting a sorry figure" when discussing a fellow composer; you are quite correct in remonstrating about my own use of the phrase - which wasn't meant as an ad hominem comment on Matthews as a person, but an over-hasty response to ahinton's earlier ("cutting") comment. I hope that my subsequent comments (about my finding it sad that so many composers seem reluctant to take advantage the vigorous, witty, charming and graceful opportunities that have presented themselves in the languages of the New Musics since 1950) have made this clear.

[jayne lee wilson]

Well, fhg and I are almost speaking different languages, coming to music (for me, only as a listener) from totally different directions. From different worlds...
But if I'd known before this sunny afternoon that he was a composer, It would have been far clearer why! A creative artist's point of view does tend to the uncompromising, which this listener's tries quite hard not to be. The perils of online hidden identities...

The idea that I have "such low expectations of music" is utterly alien to me of course. I spread my arms wide to as much of it (intellectually and emotionally!) as I can, and tend to shut up about the parts of it I just can't get... but with respect to fhg's long list, if those new musics aren't on record or broadcast much in the first place, it gets a bit difficult!

I'm left a little saddened that I was unable to make myself better understood by a contemporary composer (especially given the amount of time I spend listening to Contemporary Music - since Music In Our Time in the 1970s) , but a vigorous exchange with fhg sure helps to raise your game - whether thinking, writing or (hopefully) listening...

[Richard Barrett]

I am not actually the composer Brian Ferneyhough

WHAT???????

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

WHAT???????

[french frank]

Now that is a can of worms to be sure. What does "authentic" mean?

Pass. That's why I put it in quotes with a smiley . Yes,it's another discussion - I was reacting to the comment by MrGongGong!

[ahinton]

What does "authentic" mean?

For a definitive (authentic?) answer to that question, see Humpty Dumpty, one may suppose...

[french frank]

But isn't this two-edged - rather like William Morris's well-intentioned craft-conserving attempt to baulk at history in the name of recreating forms of non-alienated labour by sidestepping the possibilities afforded by the new technology of his time? In a curatorial way it might well be instructive to recreate an idealised past seen through rose-tinted spectacles, but much as those attending performances of the John (son of Glen) Miller Band on Brighton Pier wearing WW2 uniforms and demob suits, how much does HIPP-correctness really illuminate the world of today? However performed, music of whatever period is still being made the possession of those performing it - even only for the duration.

That wasn't my point. Modern performers may do what they like with it, but they don't somehow "possess" the original. It can have its validity without being considered a 'tourist attraction'. It was the concept that traditional musics could be considered by modern performers as 'their music': it isn't. 'Their music' is what they perform and how they perform it. It doesn't invalidate the art of the past or how it was performed. It's a moot point (to get back) whether a fundamental 'purpose' of art is to reflect its own time. Some take it that that is what art is, other don't.

Cf Mr GongGong's comment:

Many performers of non-western musics don't want their music presented as an exotic novelty for the tourists to gawp at

[Serial_Apologist]

But if I'd known before this sunny afternoon that he was a composer, It would have been far clearer why!

He might be, jayne!

[Serial_Apologist]

For a definitive (authentic?) answer to that question, see Humpty Dumpty, one may suppose...

Or those who successfully put Humpty Dumpty together again..... eventually.

[ahinton]

Or those who successfully put Humpty Dumpty together again..... eventually.

!!! (although I have no doubt that you are familiar with the quote that I had in mind)...

[Serial_Apologist]

That wasn't my point. Modern performers may do what they like with it, but they don't somehow "possess" the original. It can have its validity without being considered a 'tourist attraction'. It was the concept that traditional musics could be considered by modern performers as 'their music': it isn't. 'Their music' is what they perform and how they perform it. It doesn't invalidate the art of the past or how it was performed. It's a moot point (to get back) whether a fundamental 'purpose' of art is to reflect its own time. Some take it that that is what art is, other don't.

Cf Mr GongGong's comment:

Whereas I would argue that, by taking place when it does, any action forms a potentially intelligible part of its time; it's how it does that divides opinion on David Matthews's 8th symphony in the foregoing discussion.

[vinteuil]

!!! (although I have no doubt that you are familiar with the quote that I had in mind)...

... "I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"

[Serial_Apologist]

!!! (although I have no doubt that you are familiar with the quote that I had in mind)...

Probably not, actually... I was, um, going back to the... original!!!

[ahinton]

Probably not, actually... I was, um, going back to the... original!!!

Well, you have no need to do that now that our resident premier cru classé has quoted the passage concerned in its entirety!

[P. G. Tipps]

Entertaining thread, well-fought and cogently-argued on both sides ...

With music (as with so many other things in life) if one is generally considered to be wrong he/she is almost certainly right!

Alas, the reverse is invariably true as well ...