David Matthews SYMPHONY NO. 8 First Performance 17/04/15

[Serial_Apologist]

!!! (although I have no doubt that you are familiar with the quote that I had in mind)...

Are you sure, ah? Vints' quote looks to me more like a Wittgensteinian expurgation!

[jayne lee wilson]

He might be, jayne!

"Leaving aside composers older than myself "...

fhg, #259...

[ahinton]

Entertaining thread, well-fought and cogently-argued on both sides ...

With music (as with so many other things in life) if one is generally considered to be wrong he/she is almost certainly right!

Alas, the reverse is invariably true as well ...

Indeed, but it remains those "sides" that bother me, to the extent that there can be no right or wrong when considering how different individuals listen to Matthews 8 and how their responses to that experience will inevitably vary.

[Serial_Apologist]

Indeed, but it remains those "sides" that bother me, to the extent that there can be no right or wrong when considering how different individuals listen to Matthews 8 and how their responses to that experience will inevitably vary.

And this is how governments get elected...

[ahinton]

"Leaving aside composers older than myself "...

fhg, #259...

Ah, yes, Jayne, but that doesn't of itself necessarily mean that he is one himself!...

[jayne lee wilson]

Ah, yes, Jayne, but that doesn't of itself necessarily mean that he is one himself!...

Like being at a Masked Ball isn't it...... always did regret not calling myself Puss-in-Boots...

(But if fhg isn't a composer, I'm a bit more than saddened... )

[ahinton]

Like being at a Masked Ball isn't it..

Un Ballo in Matthewsa?...

.... always did regret not calling myself Puss-in-Boots...

(But if fhg isn't a composer, I'm a bit more than saddened... )

...which leads inevitably to the question "yes, Jayne - but are YOU one?"(!)...

[Richard Barrett]

The only difference between someone who "is" a composer and someone who "isn't" is that one of them is actively involved in creating music and the other isn't, that is to say (as I've said before) it's something you do, not something you are. Everyone contributing to this discussion is a "music lover" in your sense, Jayne. It's not that "being a composer" means you develop your musical preferences in a certain way, it's that the development of your musical preferences might (or might not) lead to expressing in music the way you hear things. "Being a composer" is in no way a privileged position in principle. I say that because whether our friend ferneyhoughgeliebte himself (or any other contributor) writes music or not is really not relevant to this discussion.

[clive heath]

Yes, my apologies for the misattribution, fhg, I nearly wrote " your alter-ego" but was wary as you might imagine. Nevertheless in reference to musical styles my point was that criticising composers for referring back to earlier times runs the risks that those in the know could make the same assertion about some modern music given that it has been around a while. What to me was truly amazing and worth the visit to the tube was the score, a visual feast in itself. I despaired for the typesetters and for the 2nd violin ( or was it the viola?) who must be losing sleep over whether his 4 scrunchy semiquavers were "brutale" enough.

[Richard Barrett]

criticising composers for referring back to earlier times

This in itself was never however the criticism, which was not about referring to things but about ignoring things.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"Leaving aside composers older than myself "...

fhg, #259...

I meant "Leaving aside people who happen to compose who are older than I am".

I'll admit to being a "people".

[clive heath]

If you refer back you inevitably ignore what happened in the interim. In any case arguments that call into service Miles ! Coltrane ! are clearly examples of the old trade of "body snatching" i.e. calling into service of your argument characters from the past( Arthur Koestler, George Orwell are favourites here) who you have no idea whether in actual life would have endorsed your points of view, and in the case of Coltrane patently absurd for the consequence of his genius was the sterilization of tenor sax players for decades who had learnt the licks and bored us to tears with faux-coltranisms. Not all influences are benign. I gave up Jazz piano as a possible mode of employment not just because I'm a non-smoker but because following "Bitches Brew" everything went electronic and Fusion. Not to my taste so I ended up a teacher. It was many years before jazz got back to swinging basics and ignored ( how dare they) the rigid 8 to a bar that was death by a thousand rim-shots.

[Serial_Apologist]

If you refer back you inevitably ignore what happened in the interim. In any case arguments that call into service Miles ! Coltrane ! are clearly examples of the old trade of "body snatching" i.e. calling into service of your argument characters from the past( Arthur Koestler, George Orwell are favourites here) who you have no idea whether in actual life would have endorsed your points of view, and in the case of Coltrane patently absurd for the consequence of his genius was the sterilization of tenor sax players for decades who had learnt the licks and bored us to tears with faux-coltranisms. Not all influences are benign. I gave up Jazz piano as a possible mode of employment not just because I'm a non-smoker but because following "Bitches Brew" everything went electronic and Fusion. Not to my taste so I ended up a teacher. It was many years before jazz got back to swinging basics and ignored ( how dare they) the rigid 8 to a bar that was death by a thousand rim-shots.

With all due respects that's a bit disingenuous Clive. There were, and still are, living contemporaries of Coltrane and Miles prepared to defend them. But in any case the situation of the contemporary modern composer is not really comparable since different idiomatic and contextual criteria apply.

[clive heath]

The implication is that I was denigrating Miles and Coltrane. Not so. I have more albums/CDs by them than any other musicians. What I was referring to was the way in which other musicians felt that they were not worthy if they did not slavishly echo the timbre, melodic patterns and group dynamics of these artists. To reiterate: you necessarily ignore the recent developments in music if you chose to refer your music to earlier genres. This is an entirely neutral choice which should be judged by the outcome which may please or no, composer, listener, whoever. It is not to be castigated a priori as has occurred above. And yes, we would hope that composers were not susceptible to such influences, but I have my doubts and I dare say that the outcome of such influence may be entirely acceptable. There must be examples but I can't think of one at the moment..

[Richard Barrett]

What I was referring to was the way in which other musicians felt that they were not worthy if they did not slavishly echo the timbre, melodic patterns and group dynamics of these artists.

Yes but these were the people without sufficient imagination or individuality to do anything else, and if you're trying to say all or most tenor and trumpet players "for decades" fall into this category I would have to say you're oversimplifying to the point of meaninglessness. Again, though, in saying "you necessarily ignore the recent developments in music if you chose to refer your music to earlier genres. This is an entirely neutral choice which should be judged by the outcome which may please or no, composer, listener, whoever. It is not to be castigated a priori as has occurred above" you're really making a straw-man argument since nobody has made such castigations, unless I missed something.