25/9/14 - BBC SSO Shostakovich 10

[gradus]

Well it was only a few years back when perhaps the finest performance of the 10th yet heard at the Proms was given by the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra, it was certainly acclaimed by many boarders as one of the season's highlights. Not all youth orchestras are created equal.

[richardfinegold]

Well it was only a few years back when perhaps the finest performance of the 10th yet heard at the Proms was given by the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra, it was certainly acclaimed by many boarders as one of the season's highlights. Not all youth orchestras are created equal.

That Orchestra isn't the standard youth Orchestra. I heard them on tour and have a few oftheir CDs with "The Dude" conducting. I've been told that they are the best Orchestra in all of Latin America.

[Tapiola]

Are you suggesting that exposure to the apparent inadequacies of a youth orchestra performance can sully your professional view of Shostakovich symphony no.10?

I suggest that you are talking what Peter Brough would have called 'gollocks'

Hey mistah! Leave the kids alone!

With you all the way on this one, Ams.

What really is the damage to great and holy art if a youth orchestra tries its best (and perhaps "fails") in such a difficult work? I played in Shos 5 and Mahler 10 as a student. We played them rope-ily, but we got through them. And we learnt a lot in the experience.

I imagine even HS was once in a youth orchestra. What potential damage to young people to be castigated for at least trying? Such elitist, pompous attitudes are enough to drive even more young people from classical performance. For life.

[richardfinegold]

With you all the way on this one, Ams.

What really is the damage to great and holy art if a youth orchestra tries its best (and perhaps "fails") in such a difficult work? I played in Shos 5 and Mahler 10 as a student. We played them rope-ily, but we got through them. And we learnt a lot in the experience.

I imagine even HS was once in a youth orchestra. What potential damage to young people to be castigated for at least trying? Such elitist, pompous attitudes are enough to drive even more young people from classical performance. For life.

In the example that I cited, the bad performance of the DSCH 10th put me off the piece for years, and my friend the Concert Master felt that pushing the Orchestra beyond their readiness level was a bad thing. I suppose there must be a happy medium somewhere.
I have several recording by Youth Orchestras that I treasure, primarily because the repertoire is otherwise unrecorded.
I have Symphonies by Walter Piston and Havergal Brian where Youth Orchestras are the only choice, and I also have Brahms Symphonies led by George Tintner that hold up very well.

[Hornspieler]

With you all the way on this one, Ams.

What really is the damage to great and holy art if a youth orchestra tries its best (and perhaps "fails") in such a difficult work? I played in Shos 5 and Mahler 10 as a student. We played them rope-ily, but we got through them. And we learnt a lot in the experience.

I imagine even HS was once in a youth orchestra. What potential damage to young people to be castigated for at least trying? Such elitist, pompous attitudes are enough to drive even more young people from classical performance. For life.

I am totally in favour of Youth Orchestras. I have in fact been privileged to coach the brass and horn sections of the National Youth Orchestra of Wales, the Croydon Youth Orchestra, Ernest Read's London Junior Orchestra, and the youth orchestra where I gained my experience of meeting other young people from all over the British Isles in Ernest Read's School Orchestra Summer Courses in Sherborne Girls' school in Dorset.

So I will start with that: There were four orchestras:

Orchestra A was for older and more experienced students: it was conducted by Ernest Read himself and was programmed to rehearse and play through Symphonies (Dvorak, Mozart, Beethoven, for instance) and overtures and ballet suites of that same degree of difficulty (Prinz Igor, Hansel and Gretel, L'Arlessienne, Petite Suite etc.)
On the final day of the course, a selection of the thirty or more works which we had rehearsed during the preceeding days was selected to rehearse and compile an evening concert to be given for the members of the other orchestras and parents and friends.

I started in Orchestra B at the age of 13: This was conducted by Leslie Regan (who, like Ernest Read, was a professor at the Royal Academy of Music)
I recall that we sightread and rehearsed the Cosi Fan Tutti overture, The Haffner Symphony, Gounod's Funeral March of a Marionette, and similar music of the same standard of difficulty - bearing in mind as I now realise, the technical standard of the string players in particular.
On the penultimate day of the course, a short selection of the works rehearsed during the preceeding days was selected to compile a concert to be given for the members of the other orchestras and parents and friends.

Orchestra C conducted by Noel Cox (Founder of the Nottingham County Youth Orchestra.) could be described as "improvers" or sometimes as "first timers" would sightread what one might call typical School orchestra pieces, such as the Minuet and trio from the Jupiter Symphony.
They too would give a short concert on the afternoon of the penultimate day of the course.

Orchestra D conducted by David Martin, was for the beginners in every sense. They would probably play some of the arrangements by Adam Carse or Hubert Clifford and the string players would be given much help and advice from one of the country's top teachers and soloists.

No Public Concerts. No ticket sales or publicity - and no idiot critics in the the Daily papers writing such rubbish as "This orchestra couls well compete with the London Philharmonic orchestra."

In the first few days of the course, a few promotions and relegations might take place to give everyone the right position for their abilities.

During the course of the week, there might be a player who has offered their services to rehearse a concerto with their chosen orchestra (and possibly, such as was the case with young Ralph Holmes or the violinist *Gillian Sansom) to actually play a movement in the orchestras final concert. (The Tchaikovsky)

* Gillian's sister was the 'cellist Carole Sansom who was first seen playing with the "B" orchestra on a ¼ size cello in the B orchestra at the age of 8.

Students would move upwards during succssive years (until reaching and going on to the age limit of 18) moving on to music colleges or settling for an amateur orchestra, such as Ernest Read's London Senior Orchestra, which also held a Summer Music Course at Queenswood Girls School in Hertfordshire.

Names that most people would recognise include:
Peter Lloyd,John Braddock (Flutes)
Janet Craxton, Roger Winfield (oboes)
Jon Harper, Christopher Regan (Bassoons)
Michael Clothier, Rodney Senior (Trumpets)
Denis Wick (Trombone)
Arthur Bevan, Chris Hortin (Horns)
Ralph Holmes, Gillian Sansom, Malcolm Latchem (Violins)
Peter Sermon(Viola)
Carole Sansom, John Dow, Gillian Amherst (Cellos)
Nigel Amherst (Double Bass and Tuba)

I went on to the Royal Academy of Music, but Ernest Read asked me to return to Sherborne as Coach for the brass instruments.

This is enough for anyone to take in for the moment, but I will return to the discussion on Youth Orchestras after I've had a bit of a rest and time to collect my thoughts. Then I will continue my reply to this post regarding the general discussion on youth orchestras.

HS

[amateur51]

Well it was only a few years back when perhaps the finest performance of the 10th yet heard at the Proms was given by the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra, it was certainly acclaimed by many boarders as one of the season's highlights. Not all youth orchestras are created equal.

It was a cracker wasn't it gradus

[Tapiola]

HS,

With respect, your message #20 contains interesting reminiscences but hardly addresses the issue contained in my previous comments.

In a different context: "Advise your reviewers to be more circumspect and intelligent for many a younger composer, who perhaps might go far, may take fright." Not my words, but those of Beethoven, to the editor of a Viennese music journal.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose ?

[gradus]

Indeed it was ams.

[amateur51]

HS,

With respect, your message #20 contains interesting reminiscences but hardly addresses the issue contained in my previous comments.

In a different context: "Advise your reviewers to be more circumspect and intelligent for many a younger composer, who perhaps might go far, may take fright." Not my words, but those of Beethoven, to the editor of a Viennese music journal.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose ?

Ah interesting quotation, Taps (have you been away, btw?)

My view is that HS is obeying the old naval wartime signal - "Make Smoke!"

[Tapiola]

(have you been away, btw?)

Yes, Ams, a partially enforced, partially voluntary exile. Have I missed anything?

"Make Smoke!"

Precisely.

[Hornspieler]

Originally Posted by Tapiola HS,

With respect, your message #20 contains interesting reminiscences but hardly addresses the issue contained in my previous comments.

As promised, this is a continuation of my message #20 (qv)

.... two things which I forgot to mention in that message:
a) One of the younger pupils at Sherborne was a thirteen year old red-haired chap from Burnley, who arrived bearing 4 clarinets (all Albert system keywork) - pitched in D,C,Bb and A, in a beautiful fitted wooden case made his father. His name? Harrison Birtwistle

b) The Sherborne course of 1948 was where I met my wife. (She's just brought me a second cup of tea)

So back to the subject of what Youth Orchestras should attempt to perform:

NB Dudamel's Simon Bolivar orchestra was not a youth orchestra. Some of its members were visibly in their mid forties, with bald heads and big paunches.
I have that recording and very fine it is, too.

Back to the subject of Youth orchestras:

In 1948, Ruth Railton announced the formation of a new REHEARSAL ORCHESTRA for young people to be known as "The National Youth Orchestra" (the "of Great Britain" part came later.)
We Sherbornites would have been interested in taking part, but Ruth Railton set the course to commence at the same time as Ernest Read's Sherborne course.

Deliberate? She had eight weeks of school summer holidays to choose from - why set up in opposition?

Anyway, it turned out not to be a rehearsal orchestra as we understood the term.

The format was as follows:

A number of pieces would be selected to comprise a public concert performance.
Copies of the music were sent in advance to the successful applicants for early acquaintance.
Distinguished coaches/tutors were recruited for each section of the orchestra.

The daily schedule was set as follows:

Morning: Sectional rehearsals taken by the tutors in different locations.

Afternoon: All the girls were ordered to go to their beds and rest. The boys were allowed to do whatever they fancied (Shut Up AMS!)

Evening: Full orchestra rehearsal of some or all of the works to be performed at the end of the course (not neccesarily all in the session)

Day before the concert: Full dress rehearsal for the Public concert to be performed the following dayl

That is how it was when I was invited to visit the NYO in 1952 at Abingdon when I was taking part in the Edinburgh Festival that year.

In 1949, when I commenced my studies at The Royal Academy of Music, there were several former members of the National Youth Orchestra joining at the same time.

I soon discovered, in this new environment, that I could sightread the pants off them! (Quiet AMS, I've already told you once!)

So this is the basis of my argument:

I am all in favour of Youth Orchestras practising and particularly sightreading difficult orchestral works; such as DSCH10 - or even Rite of Spring or Rachmaninoffs Symphonic Variations. Yes, encouraged by tutors and coaches, but it is doing them no favours to expose their efforts to the public gaze. At best, they will sound like the recent prom by the China Philharmonic - playing by rote.


The last time I saw the NYOGB on the proms, I saw quadruple woodwinds, six trumpets, four trombones, floods of violins and 4 harps!

You cannot hide discrepancies by doubling the numbers, you are simply compounding the errors.

My respects to you all - and for your personal views.

I have stated my case.

Hornspieler.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Harrison Birtwistle is from Accrington.

[Hornspieler]

Harrison Birtwistle is from Accrington.

Well, he may be now, but in 1948, he said he was from Burnley.

Does it matter, for God's sake?

HS

[salymap]

I remember Ruth Railton HS and the 22,20, 18 string numbers which decimated the string parts they borrowed.

She was a rather scary lady I thought.

[gradus]

It turns out that the SB orchestra dropped Youth from its title in 2011, when it was felt that too many of its players were getting on a bit, apparently it's mantle has now passed to the Teresa Carreno Youth Orchestra which on the evidence of this clip is hugely talented but big paunch and bald-head free! https://www.ted.com/talks/astonishin...th_orchestra_1