Bernard Haitink and COE on Thursday 5th June at 7.30

[Hornspieler]

Tuba, Harp, and 3 percussionists - and, presumably, boosted strings? The Clarinets required play Bb, A, Bass and Alto Saxophone.

But - Berg requires one trombone and one trombone fewer than Schumann: it's actually the smallest Orchestra I think Berg ever uses - still requiring about 80 orchestral players, I'd've thought (25 puffers, bangers and a plucker, plus about 50 - 60 scrapers?)

To drown the soloist? I think not.

Clarinet players all have Bflat and A clarinets as a matter of course. Music in sharp keys would usually be scored for the A clarinet and flat keys (including C major of course) on the B flat clarinet. This is not only for the purpose of facilitating the fingering but also to accomodate what was known as "Equal Temperament"* As most orchestras have a bass clarinettist on call as a matter of course, only the Alto Sax player would be regarded as an extra.

* It is difficult for even two clarinets to play exactly in tune with each other. Ten or more clarinets in a military band have no chance - which is why I would rather listen to a good brass band any day.

[BBMmk2]

Don't you like music, bbm?

PG< I think everyone knows I like music!! :)

I like the music on the programme, but it doesn';t seem to gel for me.

[pastoralguy]

PG< I think everyone knows I like music!! :)

I like the music on the programme, but it doesn';t seem to gel for me.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

To drown the soloist? I think not.

Well, neither this soloist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_rzfHC3nQw

... nor this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWWZTKZm7p4

... seem to have any problems keeping afloat with what appears to be a standard Symphony orchestra complement of strings - neither ensemble would be what I would call a "Chamber Orchestra", which is what raised my eyebrow about Haitink's programme.

PS: Ms Faust herself has no problems with the big band approach, either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJJ8JfvAEKY

[BBMmk2]

Thank you PG!! :)

[Hornspieler]

Well I listened to it, anyway.

I remember that we played Schumann's "Manfred" overture with Silvestri many years ago(he was very committed to Schumann's works)

It wasn't memorable at the time and last night I can only say that it was tidily played, but dragged on too long for me. (Twice I thought it had finished, only to continue)

I would have preferred Schumann's bright and cheerful "Overture, Scherzo and Finale" as a concert opener.

I blame the Barbican acoustics for the fact that I could not hear the opening of the Berg concerto until the soloist started to play, but even then, not loud enough for an opening statement.

So what did I think of it, in my quest to understand this work?
I'm sure that Ms Faust was playing well and there were a few touching moments but I am no nearer to understanding this work and why a soloist would want to perform it.

Has Vengerov, Shaham, Perlmann, Ennes, Oistrach ever bothered to include it in their repertoire?

Last year, I listened to that other early 20th Century violin concerto - the Elgar.
For days afterwards those tunes were still in my head, reminding me of a great musical experience.
I have to say that now, less than twelve hours after its performance, I cannot remember a single phrase from last night's Berg concerto.

Beethoven's Pastoral symphony gave good opportunity for a display of musical woodwind playing and the result was most pleasing; as was the horn playing (not an easy part to bring off with panache and, apart from one little blip in the finale the playing was impressive).
Not so the timpanist! Rather than giving the rumble of thunder, he sounded like Black Rod hammering at the closed door of the House of Commons.

All in all, then, a concert of varied quality. I shall look forward to that Ravel G major Piano Concerto on Saturday.

Hornspieler

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... I am no nearer to understanding this work and why a soloist would want to perform it.

Has Vengerov, Shaham, Perlmann, Ennes, Oistrach ever bothered to include it in their repertoire?

Vengerov, Perlmann, Ennes yes - Oistrach, I think recorded it, Shahm, don't know. Suk, Menuhin, Szeryng, Kremer and, of course, Szigeti also "bothered", too, and it is a staple for most Violinists nowadays - although I don't think Nigel Kennedy has ever played it.

I have to say that now, less than twelve hours after its performance, I cannot remember a single phrase from last night's Berg concerto.

I'm not sure that this is a reflection on the work, HS.

[Bryn]

Vengerov, Perlmann, Ennes yes - Oistrach, I think recorded it, Shahm[sic], don't know. Suk, Menuhin, Szeryng, Kremer and, of course, Szigeti also "bothered", too, and it is a staple for most Violinists nowadays - although I don't think Nigel Kennedy has ever played it.

I have to say that now, less than twelve hours after its performance, I cannot remember a single phrase from last night's Berg concerto.

I'm not sure that this is a reflection on the work, HS.

Oh come on. It's well known that Berg could no more write a memorable melodic line that Bach could.

As it happens, I find the Berg far, far more memorable than the Elgar. I can't, off hand, recall a single note of that, whereas the Berg I have no problem listening to in my mind's ear. There again, my introduction to the work was via the Suk/Ancerl recording, which is sans pareil. Must give last night's Faustian performance an audition later. Her recording of the work with Abbado comes close in my affections to the Suk/Ancerl.

Oh, and according to this, Kennedy does have the Berg "in his catalogue".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Oh, and according to this, Kennedy does have the Berg "in his catalogue".

I love the Elgar Concerto, but it's interesting that HS mentions it after wondering about which Violinists had "bothered" to include the Berg in their repertoire. The list of eminent soloists who don't/didn't "bother" to include the Elgar on their programmes is much wider than those who ignore the Berg. Especially as that list includes the name of David Oistrakh. Is this fact meant to demonstrate the shortcomings of the Elgar?

[Nick Armstrong]

Well I listened to it, anyway.

I did too, - well, to the first half only... and completely share your view of the Schumann - speaking as a Schumann fan. Bernie's talking it up beforehand made me look forward to hearing this apparent neglected, passionate masterpicece... Not a bit of it, I thought it plodding and uninspired.

And I too have struggled with the Berg over the years. I desperately want to like it, but I'm now a bit tired of the way the lullaby and the Bach weave in, the piece is starting to sound mawkish and obscure by turns to my ears. Maybe as ferney says, more a reflection of the performance than the piece but I do think the latter has something to with it...

Plus the summer student back in W1A obviously failed to press the right button at the interval, a right old cock-up as regards the much-plugged 'extended interview' with Bern...

"Yes No Excellent, Very Strong"

[Keraulophone]

Thank you fhg for that link to Ivry Gitlis playing the Berg. He is such a communicative musician who seems to turn everything he plays to gold, especially when caught live. Luckily for us, his powers have not waned into his latter years, unlike, say with Menuhin, whose intonation became quite painful to listen to.

Berg's VC was one of the set works I had the good fortune to study for A-level, so I've been able to live with it for a long time, marvelling at each encounter how the intense lyricism of what one hears is underpinned by such complexity of serialism, folk song, numerology (the numbers 10 and 23), the initials AB and those of his mistress, the tritone chorale of BWV 60, plus its function as a Requiem for Manon Gropius.

My favourite VC may be by Elgar, but for those who haven't yet 'got' Berg's contribution, please do keep trying! (A score does help.)

[Nick Armstrong]

I've been able to live with it for a long time, marvelling at each encounter how the intense lyricism of what one hears is underpinned by such complexity of serialism, folk song, numerology (the numbers 10 and 23), the initials AB and those of his mistress, the tritone chorale of BWV 60, plus its function as a Requiem for Manon Gropius.

That is the most enticing analysis of the piece I've ever encountered! Thanks.... How is one to unravel the serialism/folksong/numerological aspects, even with a score?

[Richard Tarleton]

Where's jlw when we need her?

[Pianorak]

. . . I thought it [Manfred] plodding and uninspired. . .

The performance of it was - but it need not be! My LP collection in bit of a mess, hence can't quote chapter and verse at the moment.
Sat dutifully through the Berg VC, a first encounter - in no hurry to repeat the experience, my loss obviously.

[LHC]

Vengerov, Perlmann, Ennes yes - Oistrach, I think recorded it, Shahm, don't know. Suk, Menuhin, Szeryng, Kremer and, of course, Szigeti also "bothered", too, and it is a staple for most Violinists nowadays - although I don't think Nigel Kennedy has ever played it.


I'm not sure that this is a reflection on the work, HS.

Kennedy certainly has the Berg concerto in his repertoire, if the reports of him performing it while dressed up as Dracula at the BBC Symphony’s 60th-anniversary concert are to be believed.
concer