Live in concert 7/5/14 - 7:30pm BSO/Karabits - Brahms

[edashtav]

Oh dear! Where was my crescendo in the opening bars? So far, I have found the performance feeble and lifeless - and that first movement repeat is one that never works for me. This movement needs to be full of bravado and (as my teacher Aubrey Brain would have said) more declamatory. Listening to that first movement, Hector Berlioz's "March to the Scaffold" came to mind.

The second movement sounds better, but I feel that the orchestra is treading carefully.

I've now abandoned this broadcast pro tem, but will pick it up again tomorrow or later - hoping for better than I've heard so far

HS

My evening with Brahms went awry - after the first two movements of the C minor, I heard only two 3 minute snatches from the D major symphony.

Where is your crescendo through the opening bars, hs? My ms is a very early quarter leather bound Simrock edition. The marking for first 8 bars varies across the orchestra from f pesante(cb) through f expressivo e legato (other strings) to f across wind, brass interjections and timpani. Only in the final flourish (bar 9 : 9/8) do we get a general crescendo that aims towards the staccato quaver at the start of bar 10. Yet... the timps ( marked f at the start) crescendo through 9 quavers to.... an f.

It may be more emphatic to "do a Horenstein" and drive the initial statement forward with ever increasing volume, but Brahms didn't ask for that.

However, I'm behind hs on the overall "tenor" of KK's first movement. It was under-driven and seemed on cruise control. It was musical - Karabits never fails to shape music in a pleasing fashion- but it wasn't epic and a case can be made that this long-delayed first symphony should sound as if it exploded, forced its way, out of Brahms mind.

I enjoyed the lyrical Allegretto with some lovely wind playing that observed the marking "dolce"

For the rest, and for tomorrow's concert, I must rely on the iPlayer.

So far: satisfactory but not a major contribution to our knowledge of Brahms.

[Hornspieler]

My evening with Brahms went awry - after the first two movements of the C minor, I heard only two 3 minute snatches from the D major symphony.

Where is your crescendo through the opening bars, hs? My ms is a very early quarter leather bound Simrock edition. The marking for first 8 bars varies across the orchestra from f pesante(cb) through f expressivo e legato (other strings) to f across wind, brass interjections and timpani. Only in the final flourish (bar 9 : 9/8) do we get a general crescendo that aims towards the staccato quaver at the start of bar 10. Yet... the timps ( marked f at the start) crescendo through 9 quavers to.... an f.

It may be more emphaticm to "do a Horenstein" and drive the initial statement forward with ever increasing volume, but Brahms didn't ask for that.

That's very interesting, Ed, because I cannot actually remember there being a crescendo marking in my part (it was 50 years ago, dammit) but Horenstein was certainl insisting upon it from the timpanist and most effective it was, too.

However, I'm behind hs on the overall "tenor" of KK's first movement. It was under-driven and seemed on cruise control. It was musical - Karabits never fails to shape music in a pleasing fashion but it wasn't epic and a case can be made that this long-delayed first symphony should sound as if it exploded, forced its way out of Brahms mind.

For me, the piece should feel as if it is marching forward to something new and exciting, with an occasional pause for breath, marked by the clarinet and those lovely octave slurs by the 3rd horn and later by the 1st horn. Then pick up the tempo. March on to something as new to Brahms as to the listener. (Those horn players could have done a lot more with their little solos - I could barely hear them.)

I enjoyed the lyrical Allegretto with some lovely wind playing that observed the marking "dolce"
For the rest, and for tomorrow's concert, I must rely on the iPlayer.

So far: satisfactory but not a major contribution to our knowledge of Brahms.

Still, there was a nicely shaped duet between the solo violin and 1st horn towards the end of the movement.

Let us meet again on our impressions regarding this concert after we have visited the iPlayer.

HS

[edashtav]

I'll add one "worry" for now, hs. My friends, the rehearsal spies, drew my attrention to the give and take nature of Karabits direction- quiet discussion of musical points and methods. Can such an open and interactive methods lead to great musical performances, I wonder? Where's the unifying force, the vision that hammers every part into shape and coherence on its anvil? Democracy is fine and leads to many fine things, can it scale Mount Olympus?

[Bryn]

... Democracy is fine and leads to many fine things, can it scale Mount Olympus?

I wouldn't bank on it.

[Hornspieler]

I'll add one "worry" for now, hs. My friends, the rehearsal spies, drew my attrention to the give and take nature of Karabits direction- quiet discussion of musical points and methods. Can such an open and interactive methods lead to great musical performances, I wonder? Where's the unifying force, the vision that hammers every part into shape and coherence on its anvil? Democracy is fine and leads to many fine things, can it scale Mount Olympus?

EXACTLY

There can be only one interpretation - the Conductor's. On the night, he takes the accolades and he must take the blame.

That is what rehearsals are all about - and where the conductor must impose his own interpretation upon a work.

HS

(To continue my rant)

So, I've just listened to the last two movements of Brahms Nº 1.

The opening (in fact, the link to) the finale is an absolute disaster. Can't hear the pizzicato strings until about the fifth bar - same when the phrase is repeated Then, after the first horn call, the flute echoed it with the accent in the wrong place.
Trombone split not excusable. "A" is not a high note for a competent player.
Now the repeated horn calls:
2nd horn should override the 1st horn a semitone higher and louder. 1st horn repeats his call and again 2nd horn attempts to override. Now the 1st horn should settle the argument by repeating his phrase higher up and more assertively.

That's the plan, but it didn't happen that way - that last call was almost apologetic. Thank goodness that Helen Henschel's tune, beloved by all children in past years, saved the day and brought the symphony to a satisfying ending.

Now I'm going to listen to the second half. Watch this space:

"The harsh bray of the trumpet"

It was Shakespeare not me who said that, but it is a problem with the "Lighthouse" in Poole and I prefer to hear the orchestra when they broadcast from The Anvil in Basingstoke. Still, I think that Symphony Nº 2 has been the best of this cycle (Having listened now to the 3rd and 4th as well.

Nº 3 was okay but did little for me personally.

Yes, I know it is difficult and some questionable ensemble in a few places reinforced that view.

The sound balance throughout this cycle was terrible! Quieter passages inaudible and louder sections blowing me across the room. If this was my old BBC gang from Bristol, they should be ashamed . No hall or performance is [I]that[/] difficult to balance.

As regards the orchestra in general, (and here I come to Symphony Nº 4), there was, at times, some shockingly bad ensemble and I couldn't help thinking that the violins in general are probably the weakest section in the orchestra.

On a more general aspect, they've got to do something to settle that horn section. You can't go on year after year with guest Principals changing every couple of weeks and currently the section is ill balanced. I would point out that in a horn quartet, the 3rd horn is also granted Principal status because very often he/she has tasks to perform as difficult as the 1st horn (as in most of Brahms' orchestral works) and it should not be obvious to the listener who it is that is playing those very important solo passages.. There are plenty of very good young players coming on stream and the standard of students emerging from the colleges of music has never been higher.

That's it as far as I am concerned, but just to mention that I am indebted to edashtav for his contributions as to what Brahms put in his original scores.

HS

[trbcm]

As one of the “spies” who attended the day of open rehearsals of S1 and S2, I’m afraid that my good friend Edashtav has misunderstood our description. For3 members are getting the impression that orchestra players were suggesting how the symphony should “go”, i.e. they were influencing the conductor’s “interpretation” (I put that word in quotes, since I hate it as much as does Bernard Haitink). Absolutely not! Here is a conductor with a totally clear vision of the music he is performing.

What we were alluding to was the huge respect that Mr Karabits has for the members of the orchestra as people and as fellow musicians, and his willingness to discuss the resolution of technical problems with whoever raises an issue. Likewise, as with Mariss Jansons and Valery Gergiev (to take two examples), principals are trusted to “go their own way”, within the overall context of the performance.

Interestingly, at the concert itself last night, I only heard one slightly less than fully enthusiastic response to the 1st symphony, from a learned musician who thought the opposite of the criticisms so far aired here. He thought the performance marched forward a little too strongly!

I was with the conductor, finding it a near-perfect balance in that regard, with great power derived from sustained momentum. Mr Karabits treats classical music as just that - not as romantic music. I was struck by how much we gain when a conductor does not resort to self-indulgent romantic rubato, thereby undoing the sense of structure, line, argument, momentum, etc.

That leads me to wonder the extent to which the impression gained when listening in the hall differs from that gained listening on the radio - or of course to a commercial recording. No self-respecting conductor will perform a piece with an ear for how it might sound on radio (which they can’t tell anyway): he or she is concerned only with dealing with the acoustic of the hall, for the benefit of the attendant audience.

As a consequence of the comments made, I shall accordingly find time to “listen again” to all four of the symphonies, and see if I get a different impression of the performances!

[frosty]

Hornspieler, you say' Trombone split not excusable. "A" is not a high note for a competent player.' I'm assuming therefore that you never split a note when a player...?

[Nick Armstrong]

Trombone split not excusable. "A" is not a high note for a competent player.

I was listening to the last 3 movements whilst on the move, so not in ideal conditions, and I couldn't quite hear what had happened. I always tense up as that note approaches - I've played Brahms 1 on 2 occasions, the second after some months without playing. As that entry approaches, my palms always go moist, even last night...

It's not a massively high note, agreed, but it's not the nicest note on the instrument and it's tough to summon up out of thin air, in perfect tune in second position, after a period of rests (and three movements when you don't play a thing). Miraculously, I managed to nail it both times I needed to... ... I couldn't quite hear last night but I did think "ooo that didn't sound very clean"... with a keen sense of "there but for the grace of God..."

[Hornspieler]

Hornspieler, you say' Trombone split not excusable. "A" is not a high note for a competent player.' I'm assuming therefore that you never split a note when a player...?

........ and you assume correctly, frosty.

HS

[Sir Velo]

That leads me to wonder the extent to which the impression gained when listening in the hall differs from that gained listening on the radio - or of course to a commercial recording. No self-respecting conductor will perform a piece with an ear for how it might sound on radio (which they can’t tell anyway): he or she is concerned only with dealing with the acoustic of the hall, for the benefit of the attendant audience.

As a consequence of the comments made, I shall accordingly find time to “listen again” to all four of the symphonies, and see if I get a different impression of the performances!

A most interesting response. I have noted myself that impressions from home listening are somewhat different on occasion to how it sounds in the hall. The engineers have a huge impact on how a performance is heard over the airwaves, and we would perhaps all do well to bear that in mind before we go hell for leather at the conductor or various members of the orchestra.

[edashtav]

Brahms - Is the Medium the Message?

As one of the “spies” who attended the day of open rehearsals of S1 and S2, I’m afraid that my good friend Edashtav has misunderstood our description. For3 members are getting the impression that orchestra players were suggesting how the symphony should “go”, i.e. they were influencing the conductor’s “interpretation” (I put that word in quotes, since I hate it as much as does Bernard Haitink). Absolutely not! Here is a conductor with a totally clear vision of the music he is performing.

What we were alluding to was the huge respect that Mr Karabits has for the members of the orchestra as people and as fellow musicians, and his willingness to discuss the resolution of technical problems with whoever raises an issue. Likewise, as with Mariss Jansons and Valery Gergiev (to take two examples), principals are trusted to “go their own way”, within the overall context of the performance.

Interestingly, at the concert itself last night, I only heard one slightly less than fully enthusiastic response to the 1st symphony, from a learned musician who thought the opposite of the criticisms so far aired here. He thought the performance marched forward a little too strongly!

I was with the conductor, finding it a near-perfect balance in that regard, with great power derived from sustained momentum. Mr Karabits treats classical music as just that - not as romantic music. I was struck by how much we gain when a conductor does not resort to self-indulgent romantic rubato, thereby undoing the sense of structure, line, argument, momentum, etc.

That leads me to wonder the extent to which the impression gained when listening in the hall differs from that gained listening on the radio - or of course to a commercial recording. No self-respecting conductor will perform a piece with an ear for how it might sound on radio (which they can’t tell anyway): he or she is concerned only with dealing with the acoustic of the hall, for the benefit of the attendant audience.

As a consequence of the comments made, I shall accordingly find time to “listen again” to all four of the symphonies, and see if I get a different impression of the performances!

You raise a whole raft of interesting "issues" , trbcm.
I need to thank you for clarifying what you said about Karabits in rehearsal. There is a world of difference between a Brains Trust devoted to resolving technical issues and a Band of Interpreters bending the conductor's vision of the whole. I'm glad that the former obtained, as I'm at one with hs in proclaining the supremacy of the conductor re matters of interpretation - a word I rather like!

Moving to radio listening versus "in the hall" , I agree that there's a world of difference. I think we'd agree that the acoustics in the Lighthouse are not ideal - it's a loud "in yer face" hall. Trumpets, in particular obtrude from the general texture and any brass instrument played over mf comes across as ff. If they "go for it", the listener in the hall reels and, maybe, wishes he'd brought a ball or two of cotton wool with him. I felt, listening to the R.3 transmission, that the brass was being reined in by KK at the start of the C minor. But, was it the result of the radio engineer's adjustments? I hope that you will be able to answer that for us, anon.

I've now completed the C minor on iPlayer and I enjoyed its third movement - the poco piu tranquillo ending was beautifully played - for a moment my mind jumped forward to the sound world conjured by R.Strauss in his 4 Last Songs.

I both agree and disagree with hs's analysis of the finale- but I must let that rest until I've done some errands. Just to throw in one observation.

In the "link" or introduction to the finale, I agreed with hs that the strings started (or were captured) too soft to hear but my reading of the score suggests that when hs wrote:"Can't hear the pizzicato strings until about the fifth bar - same when the phrase is repeated" , he meant that he couldn't hear the pizz. motif until the 5th bar of its stringendo, which is the 11th bar of the movement. I couldn't hear the start of that phrase, either, but we must await reports from the hall to understand whether that was due to radio balance.

[trbcm]

To deal with just the specific issue of the volume at the start of the finale of the C minor, as heard in the hall: it was EXCEPTIONALLY quiet - a whisper. I cannot recall another live performance that quiet.

Putting on my recording engineer’s hat for a moment, radio sound engineers have a particular problem: they have to provide a wide dynamic range to please digital and good old hi-fi FM listeners, but also provide a compressed mix for those listening on very small radios in noisier environments. Quite possibly the unexpected nature of the start of the finale of S1 - which was probably the quietest music of the evening - caught them out. After the concert, no-one seemed to be commenting on the issue identified by HS, but I’ll need to hear the performance on iPlayer to confirm my hypothesis.

The notorious loudness of the hall might explain the conductor’s decision to perform that passage so quietly. He got his fingers burnt with an over-loud Bruckner 9 a few weeks ago (boy, we needed more than cotton wool, Edashtav), even getting a plea for mercy from a London music critic who was present. So, to get the dynamic contrast he required during the movement without blasting us again, maybe his solution was to make the quiet even quieter.

Perhaps an example of “technical issues” dealing with the acoustic of the hall, as I suggested earlier?

[edashtav]

Thanks for those illuminations on the start of the finale as experienced by those in the hall, trbcm. It would be nice to hear from an on-duty radio engineer about the real-time problems caused by KK's whispering pp.
I'd like to examine hs's next observation - on a topic close to his heart: horncalls:
Now the repeated horn calls:
2nd horn should override the 1st horn a semitone higher and louder. 1st horn repeats his call and again 2nd horn attempts to override. Now the 1st horn should settle the argument by repeating his phrase higher up and more assertively.

That's the plan, but it didn't happen that way - that last call was almost apologetic.

That's the plan or that's the accepted wisdom, hs? My score doesn't point to a tussle with the 2nd horn threatening to out-shine his "boss", quite the opposite. Horn 1's entry is marked poco f espress.. no. 2's entry has the same dynamic MINUS the espress.! No.1 is awarded a crescendo a bar before no.2 with no. 2 "catching up" with no.1 in terms of loudness only as no1 hits his exultant high note.

It's a case of follow my leader but DON'T dominate him.

Performing traditions grow by accretion and, at some point perhaps inspired by Aubrey Brain, "your" version ruled the British hornwaves.
And... of course, it works, but, if I'm right, it's not what Brahms intended. I've checked with my newer Eulenberg ms and it agrees with Simrock re the horncalls.

You were right that KK rounded off the movement in emphatic, broad and effective style. It needs "the works" , "the full treatment", for I agree with Clara Schumann when she wrote:

"If I must say anything about the last movement, or rather the concluding Presto, it is that the latter falls short, musically, of the inspiration that precedes it. The climax of the Presto does not seem to grow out of the whle movement, but appears to be added on as a brilliant finish."

[edashtav]

Don't forget : it's forwards with Karabits to Brahms last two symphonies , tonight, live from Poole with the BSO.

[Hornspieler]

Please see my message #20 for an update on this Brahms cycle.

Good night to all

HS