LSO/Rattle Messiaen & Bruckner

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  • amateur51
    • Jan 2025

    LSO/Rattle Messiaen & Bruckner

    We've been exhorted to comment more on Radio 3 programmes so I thought I'd have a go at this concert comprising Messiaen's Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum and Bruckner Symphony no.9 given 'live' at Royal Festival Hall last week and broadcast last evening.



    Rattle is well-known for his inventive programming and this was no exception. There's an interesting conversation before the concert proper between presenter Catherine Bott (one of my faviourites - intelligent, good voice, excellent pronunciation particularly of Italian & all round good egg) and Sir Simon Rattle, in which he speaks intelligently about the links between the two pieces and the different ways in which the two very different composers sought to express aspects of their faith through their music and in particular through these pieces. I'm not a religious person but Rattle spoke well, intelligently and interestingly.He also spoke with enthusiasm about what remains of Bruckner's finale for the ninth symphony - I wonder if he will ever perform a completion?

    The Messiaen is a piece I've only heard on CD so it was good to hear it 'live' and it is a tremendously impressive sound world. The gongs and tam tams sounded superb and it must have been a wonderful event to attend purely for the visual aspect. Rattle is well-known for his aversion to the RFH's acoustic and perhaps it was a little naughty of him to programme this piece but it certainly got my living room shaking - sorry neighbours! The LSO percussion section were on fine form, making this a great occasion and at the end .... silence! Followed by enthusiastic applause but none of the usual 'horray'ing Henries.

    Bruckner symphony no 9 is more familiar ground for me and I have heard Rattle conduct it several times, once with BPO for certain. In the interview Rattle spoke about the last complete movement being a forebear of Berg and Mahler symphony no 10 and he certainly brought out these aspects, which I had not articulated in this way before. It was a typical Rattle performance, full of energy when required, and lots of by-ways brought out so that I was hearing things that I felt that I hadn't heard before. Many people hate this approach (micro-management they call it) but I love it in Shura Cherkassky's Chopin playing and I loved it in this performance too.

    There was some great brass playing and the LSO did themselves proud. And at the end? Silence once again: the hoorays sat on their hands, thank goodness.

    As a person of limited means, I would not have been able to attend this concert and I'm very grateful to the BBc for letting me hear great concert-making at home.

    It's available as usual for another 6 days on the link above.
  • antongould
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 8851

    #2
    I only heard the first 2 movements of B9 but I was very impressed by the performance - on another thread someone, I think, mentioned they found the 3rd movement disappointing.

    Comment

    • johnb
      Full Member
      • Mar 2007
      • 2903

      #3
      I'm curious - how did Rattle's Bruckner with the LSO compare to his performances with the Berlin Phil? (Sometimes I wonder whether Rattle would be a better conductor if he didn't have such a fabulous toy, the BPO, to play with.)

      By the way, the performance was given in the LSO's home, the Barbican, not the RFH.

      Comment

      • kernelbogey
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 5836

        #4
        As i posted elsewhere: I heard lots of detail, some of it new to me, but I missed that overarching view so essential in B and ended up disappointed.

        Comment

        • tsuji-giri

          #5
          I thought the performance was awesome.
          I'm sure I heard Sir Simon say that he would perform one of the completions of the 4th movement next year. (There are some versions around on YouTube, but of questionable quality and in some cases simply eccentric). Does anyone else think SR said he would perform a completion?
          Although I enjoyed Simon Rattle's pre performance talk, I'm not sure that he was quite right about the theft of Bruckner manuscripts, which he said took place from the bed of the dying composer. In fact, on the day he died, Bruckner worked on the 9th in the morning, then took a walk in the garden. On returning he felt cold, asked for a cup of tea, then died. The theft of manuscripts occurred after his death.

          Personally I like to think that Bruckner actually did finish it, on the day he died (we know that he had a clear idea of how it was to end, and we do also know how long the coda was to have been), however Bruckner thought he had a deal with God whereby he would live long enough to finish the 9th; it would be too good a story not to be true if in fact he did finish and then God called in the bargain!

          If you hunt around on the Internet there are accounts of work on the completion of the finale of the 9th, also some account of the many libraries in which sections of the manuscripts turned up over the century plus since Bruckner's death. It's a truly amazing piece of detective work.

          Incidentally, it would be an interesting curiosity if there were at some time to be a performance of the Ferdinand Lowe 'version' (some say falsification) of Bruckner's 9th, I wonder just how bad it is?

          Comment

          • Bryn
            Banned
            • Mar 2007
            • 24688

            #6
            I'm quite happy with Rattle's erswhile student Harding's performance with the Swedish RSO. It's not hard to find with Google.

            Comment

            • kernelbogey
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 5836

              #7
              Originally posted by tsuji-giri View Post
              [....] I'm sure I heard Sir Simon say that he would perform one of the completions of the 4th movement next year. [....] Does anyone else think SR said he would perform a completion? [....]
              I heard him say that he hoped he would perform it next year. (Didn't catch whose version, but he said they'd been working on it for twenty years.)

              Comment

              • BBMmk2
                Late Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 20908

                #8
                The performance of Bruckner's 9th was awsome(and I dont mean this to belittle this much misused word).

                Probably the best live perfrmance of this work I have yet heard! I found it to be quite spacious and as if Rattle gave time for the music to breathe.
                Don’t cry for me
                I go where music was born

                J S Bach 1685-1750

                Comment

                • Bryn
                  Banned
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 24688

                  #9
                  Originally posted by kernelbogey View Post
                  I heard him say that he hoped he would perform it next year. (Didn't catch whose version, but he said they'd been working on it for twenty years.)
                  Presumably the, by then, most recent version by Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs (et al?). Harding's performance was of their 2007 revision. They have since made further adjustments and are apparently continuing to do so.

                  Comment

                  • scottycelt

                    #10
                    Yes, Rattle said at least twice he would conduct a completed version next year. I have mixed feelings about any 'completion' but I think the lengthy sketches for the Finale are so incredibly forward-looking and extraordinary that the last Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs effort is well worth an airing by a top-class orchestra and conductor. Maybe at the Proms 2012?

                    I haven't been at the Proms for about ten years now, but I'd certainly make the 400-mile round trip if that were on the menu at that superb London venue ... and I agree with amateur that the pairing of Messiaen and Bruckner was bold and refreshing.

                    However, I do wish commentators (this time Rattle) would stop describing every damned Catholic, from Guinness-guzzler to serial murderer, as 'devout' ...

                    Comment

                    • PatrickOD

                      #11
                      What about a devout Guinness-guzzler who goes to Mass, scotty? And I don't think you you should offer comfort to those would assert that every Catholic is damned anyway.
                      But, I thought the Messiaen/ Bruckner concert was tremendous - devoutly to be listened to again.

                      Comment

                      • scottycelt

                        #12
                        Apologies, Patrick, my own Guinness-guzzling may have got the better of me .. .

                        The Bruckner 9 performance was described by Richard Morrison as, among other things, 'snarling' ... for me, it's also a mighty anguished cry of 'Why? Why? Why?' on behalf of the whole of humanity. Particularly apt when we witness the mightmarish horrors that have just befallen the people of Japan and other parts of the world?

                        Despite his deep Catholic conviction, country-boy Bruckner's supposed 24-hour 'devoutness' (piety) has never seemed particularly plausible to me and, possibly, even less so in the case of the worldly-wise Messiaen.

                        As you say, however, a wonderful concert indeed!

                        Comment

                        • amateur51

                          #13
                          Sorry about getting the venue wrong

                          Rattle also mentioned that the LSO rarely plays Mozart or Haydn these days, which he thought was sad. I'd have thought that Sir Colin programmes a fair bit of Mozart.

                          Comment

                          • johnb
                            Full Member
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 2903

                            #14
                            He also said it was sad that the LSO never performed Bach because (I a paraphrase) "Bach influenced Bruckner and Bruckner influenced Bach" - which left me scratching my head for a while.

                            Comment

                            • scottycelt

                              #15
                              Yes, Johnb, I couldn't quite work that one out either ...

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