Symphonies: the finale problem

[verismissimo]

A composer who IMHO suffers from finale problems in general (i.e. Sonatas, quartets and a symphony) is Schubert.

It's Schumann 4 for me...

[ahinton]

Re the finale of your Op.13, being a non-musician who couldn't tell a rising fifth from a rissole (that's me, not you), a 'problem' in the finale does not mean so much to me, on a technical level. Otherwise I think the finale might be a tad long, but with wonderful singing and what for me, is beautiful music with aromas of Beethoven and 2nd Viennese, does it matter? How have you failed? Another example of that 'music to love, or academically respect' question.

You are very kind. I can only confirm - or rather confess - that this particular finale turned out in performance to be a b****y sight longer than I'd thought it was when I wrote it!

For the record, I struggle with more than 3 movements in Bruckner 9, and I believe that having written the first two movements of symphony #7, Bruckner could have left it there as a perfectly wrought symphony.

Well, I don't agree (as I imagine you already guessed!) but, as my own view is of little importance compared to that of the composer, I can only be glad that Bruckner himself wanted to write a four movement Seventh Symphony and did so and wanted to write a four movement Ninth Symphony and nearly did so (he actually wrote a lot more of the finel of that work than was once assumed to be the case).

Just some random ideas on finales by a 'musical dunce'.

I'm sure not!

[Lento]

Yes, and perhaps also a piano trio (the E flat).

Sizeable chunks were taken out of Schubert's finale, either before or just after the first performance: it's still pretty long even in the shortest possible version. I remember being both exhausted and exhilarated after my first live Schubert 9 (no, I wasn't in the band)! Then there is the frequently observed cut in the finale of the Tchaikovsky violin concerto.

[Lento]

Yes, and perhaps also a piano trio (the E flat).

Sizeable chunks were taken out of Schubert's finale, either before or just after the first performance: it's still pretty long even in the shortest possible version. I remember being both exhausted and exhilarated after my first live Schubert 9 (no, I wasn't in the band)! Then there is the frequently observed cut in the finale of the Tchaikovsky violin concerto.

[kea]

A composer who IMHO suffers from finale problems in general (i.e. Sonatas, quartets and a symphony) is Schubert.

I suppose I sometimes lose patience with those Schubert finales that repeat whole chunks of the preceding up or down a bit—e.g. Trout Quintet. For the most part I have no problems with most of Schubert's later finales though, at least when I'm in the mood for that sort of thing. I suppose the finale of the 'Great C major' could do with some cuts, or one could just leave out the exposition repeat. 1100 bars already makes it the longest movement of a symphony in the repertoire (at least on paper—they're 1100 bars of 2/4 at an 'Allegro vivace' clip so in practice its dimensions are somewhat less Mahlerian) without the first 300 or so being repeated.

[Roehre]

Sizeable chunks were taken out of Schubert's finale [of the piano trio in E-flat], either before or just after the first performance: it's still pretty long even in the shortest possible version. ....

Both versions of the finale are to be found on this Hyperion CD, nearly two minutes of cuts in a movement of originally nearly a quarter of an hour's length

[Hornspieler]

. I suppose the finale of the 'Great C major' could do with some cuts, or one could just leave out the exposition repeat. 1100 bars already makes it the longest movement of a symphony in the repertoire (at least on paper—they're 1100 bars of 2/4 at an 'Allegro vivace' clip so in practice its dimensions are somewhat less Mahlerian) without the first 300 or so being repeated.

There are a thousand poor violinists with their arms nearly dropping off who would agree to as many cuts as possible in that finale, but it is also worth pointing out that some very substantial cuts can be made in the second movement without detracting "from the message" and omitting at least one repeated section in the scherzo does no disservice to the work.

We played 6 consecutive performances of the symphony when on tour in Eastern Europe and I was more than glad that I was required to do no more than hold my instrument in the playing position with my right arm.

HS

[ahinton]

All of this is not, however, to suggest (or at least shouldn't be!) that cuts are a good idea, however much Mr Osborne might think that they are imperative. Tchaikovsky's been mentioned; his magnificent piano trio used almost always to be performed with several cuts, none of which, to my mind, do other than detract from the work's impact and interfere with its overall structure. Rachmaninov's Second Symphony used likewise to be truncated in almost all performances before Previn started to give the work uncut - and nowadays, hardly anyone ever plays the cut version.

[kea]

Yes, for Schubert's C major symphony the preferred solution would obviously be to have three orchestras, each one handing off to the next at the 20 minute mark. A similar strategy could be used for Bruckner and Mahler symphonies with four orchestras. They could be deployed around the hall in different configurations, lending a spatial aspect to the music and alleviating boredom in those (over?-)lengthy finales.

[Tony Halstead]

hold my instrument in the playing position with my right arm.

Sorry HS you've lost me now.... were you pointing your horn's bell 'the wrong way' or were you operating a 'natural horn' therefore not requiring your left hand / fingers to manipulate the valves?

[Roehre]

Yes, for Schubert's C major symphony the preferred solution would obviously be to have three orchestras, each one handing off to the next at the 20 minute mark. A similar strategy could be used for Bruckner and Mahler symphonies with four orchestras. They could be deployed around the hall in different configurations, lending a spatial aspect to the music and alleviating boredom in those (over?-)lengthy finales.

Jochum used in Bruckner's Fifth "13 Apostles", the whole of the brass section doubled to tackle the finale's demands for that section.

[Hornspieler]

Sorry HS you've lost me now.... were you pointing your horn's bell 'the wrong way' or were you operating a 'natural horn' therefore not requiring your left hand / fingers to manipulate the valves?

My right arm in the bell as opposed to my left hand manipulating the valves. (Those funny things that you "natural" horn players manage to do without - as, I'm sure, Schubert's contempories were stuck with)

You're just "avin' a laff" ain't yer?

HS