Orchestre National de France Thursday 17th April

[edashtav]

Yes, Jayne, there was some fine playing in the Stravinsky. When you state:
It's a foolish conductor who tries to generate interest through an excess of excitement or activity.
that's where, I feel that our needs differ. My feeling was that Gatti did try too hard to create excitement and activity through excess attention to the moment and too little attention to the impact that such minutiae can make on the greater scheme / form of things.

I can go some way and, perhaps, appreciate that Daniele is a Cool Cat, the opposite, perhaps of hard-drivers, such as George Szell, Antal Dorati, or Georg Solti.

My problem with many 21st conductors is that they sacrifice too much of the overall structure through their concern and care over individual bars & phrases.

I felt that this Symphony in C was a work in progress, that Daniele needs more opportunities to learn it through performance. If, however, he continues to refine his model, he may get worse. I thought his Tchaikovsky was off-beam and a travesty .

I wasn't looking to find fault with Gatti's Stravinsky, a favourite work of mine, as I feel that we need / the piece deserves/ frequent performances. HS was surprised that a French Orchestra did not do better in a work by a composer who spent much time in France. My worry is that we risk losing the performing tradition if orchestras don't play such pieces on a regular basis. Once every ten years or so is not frequent enough for "old hands" (e.g. hs) to tutor newer players. The mature players may not imagine but know " this is what it would have been like to hear it soon after it was written" as ts has speculated.

The first time I heard the piece live was with the BSO under Silvestri, perhaps, within 25 years of the work's premiere. That performance rarely rose to the precision and competence that we heard from the Orchestre National de France However that fractured and disjointed provincial performance convinced me to buy an LP of Stravinsky, himself, struggling to give a fully-fashioned performance. It's neither an easy play nor a piece which conducts itself.

I remain pleased that it was programmed and broadcast. Many happy returns, Symphony in C!

[Pulcinella]

Thanks, jlw, for taking the time to listen again and for your further posting.
You would be horrified at the low-fi set-up here, which may indeed have contributed to my perception (a prospective house move later this year might be an opportunity to upgrade!), and it's possible too that the overall structure came across (I forgot about the early start, so joined the transmission part-way through), but I didn't feel that I had missed a great performance.
It's possible too that I'm suffering from recording imprinting, highlighted on another thread; that first recording was, like edashtav's, Stravinsky's own, bought as an LP, coupled with the Symphony of Psalms (I was introduced to that piece at school, as an antidote to Brahms 2, which was the A-level set work, and had been able to attend a rehearsal of it by Groves and the RLPO, in the late 1960s).
If I weren't suffering from Mad Hatter syndrome (too much to do; too little time) I'd like to do my own Interpretations on Record: from memory (I'm still tucked up in bed!) I have, in addition to Stravinsky's own recording, versions by Ansermet, Ashkenazy (or is it Chailly?), Colin Davis, Dutoit, Gibson, Rattle, MTT, and the BBCMM Volkov.
A prime candidate for a Building a Library edition, methinks.

[Ariosto]

You would be horrified at the low-fi set-up here, which may indeed have contributed to my perception (a prospective house move later this year might be an opportunity to upgrade!), and it's possible too that the overall structure came across (i forgot about the early start, so joined the transmission part-way through), but I didn't feel that I had missed a great performance.

I do think we can get too hung up on how good or bad the playback equipment is, because the music, the interpretation etc., are still the same. Listening to great performances on 78's decades ago did not detract from the outstanding quality of the performances. A bad performance will still sound bad on digital/HI Fi and a good one still good on something lower Fi.

[Hornspieler]

I do think we can get too hung up on how good or bad the playback equipment is, because the music, the interpretation etc., are still the same. Listening to great performances on 78's decades ago did not detract from the outstanding quality of the performances. A bad performance will still sound bad on digital/HI Fi and a good one still good on something lower Fi.

Too much talk of technical output and not enough notice of what the average listener has been enjoying (or otherwise) in everyyday life - the musical performance.

HS

[Ariosto]

Too much talk of technical output and not enough notice of what the average listener has been enjoying (or otherwise) in everyyday life - the musical performance.

HS

Therefore HS, I think we probably agree! (However, I did not hear the concert, so I can't comment on that particular performance)

[Daniel]

Stravinsky Symphony in C... really, what an absolutely WONDERFUL performance.

I completely agree, I found this a delight from beginning to end, so deft and just riddled with subtleties. Stravinsky's own reading is somewhat sterner and Gatti really let the sunlight in to the music's great advantage I thought. One of the most engaging performances of anything I've heard recently.

[edashtav]

This debate is hotting up, I must listen again on iPlayer.

[Pulcinella]

I have now listened to the whole performance, admittedly only on an iPad.
It was a shame that I had missed the beginning on Thursday, as it really does get off to a cracking start.
But the things that struck me about the rest then still remain, and I can appreciate HS's curate's egg terminology.
Yes, the last string chord is there, but the wind and brass preceding are anything but ppp, so the effect is lost.
And the markings at figure 159 in the score, where bassoons, cellos, and basses are asked to play ff e ben marcato, with other strings marc au talon ma non f, were certainly not obeyed!
It's one of those pieces that in my arrogance, stupidity, and naivety I think I could conduct better (we all play this game, don't we?). Of course I couldn't, so like edashtav (and others) I'm more than happy that the symphony got an airing other than just in my imagination.

[Daniel]

Yes, the last string chord is there, but the wind and brass preceding are anything but ppp, so the effect is lost.

I don't have a score and I'm happy to defer to your greater knowledge of the piece/score, but does anybody play those closing brass and wind chords ppp? The three recordings I know (one of which is Stravinsky's) all seem to offer pretty similar dynamics at that point.

Those wind chords could be read as exhausted, uncertain moments before the final exhalation of the piece, and in that way feel quiet, if not necessarily actually sounding so. I suppose.

[Quarky]

Too much talk of technical output and not enough notice of what the average listener has been enjoying (or otherwise) in everyyday life - the musical performance.

HS

As an average listener, with Stravinsky as one of my favourite composers, I think Symphony in C gets the occasional exposure on R3, and I have a CD with Stravinsky conducting. This is a very subtle piece and easy to slide over the music if not listening carefully. Must put my PC away, and listen very carefully once again in a darkened room!

[Pulcinella]

Daniel: you are probably right, and I like your idea of uncertain exhaustion.

We're back to my imaginary ideal performance, where I wouldn't want such a jolt in the transition from wind/brass to strings, though looking at the score the wind/brass are indeed taken off with a comma before their rest, at which point the strings enter. Perhaps Gatti is more faithful to the score than I had given credit for. There's a similar comma before the final chord in the Symphonies of wind instruments, but there the same instruments keep playing.

I seem to have stirred up more than I anticipated with my initial counter to jlw! That will teach me. ;-)

[jayne lee wilson]

Too much talk of technical output and not enough notice of what the average listener has been enjoying (or otherwise) in everyyday life - the musical performance.

HS

Yes, but what, or who exactly IS the "average" listener? One with 7 recordings of the Symphony in C or with 2? And with so many platforms for listening to Radio 3 Concerts...?

"Too much Talk"...? Well, no, more a footnote in parentheses; a necessary reminder. Just to take one example of significant differences, the dynamic range on FM is far narrower than the digital platforms such as HDs or Freeview, which themselves aren't always identical. This can affect perception of textural clarity as well as the conductor's fidelity (or lack of it) to dynamic markings.

Simply: "let us therefore mention the fact, for it seems to us worthy of record"....

[Ariosto]

Just to take one example of significant differences, the dynamic range on FM is far narrower than the digital platforms such as HDs or Freeview, which themselves aren't always identical. This can affect perception of textural clarity as well as the conductor's fidelity (or lack of it) to dynamic markings.

This rarely makes the difference between a good interpretation of a work or a poor one. Textural clarity - conductors fidelity - dynamic markings - in the end it's either good, bad, or indifferent. (Anyway, I've yet to come across a faithful conductor ... )

[edashtav]

I've listened to the first movement, again. It is the most "classical" of the movements and I feel the most successful of the four in Gatti's hands. I've done some A/B/C comparisons with two performances by Stravinsky, himself, which I find are heavier, and more sharply etched. Gatti's performance is well played and nicely balanced but it feels less urgent, and a little too "fluffy". Stravinsky makes the movement sound more trenchant and symphonic. There's plenty of room for a variety of interpretations, in fact, it's important that we do hear the work in the hands of more conductors. It isn't scheduled as often as Stravinsky's later Symphony in Three Movements and that's a pity. It's a great piece.

[edashtav]

As someone who looks forward to Jayne's posts here, whether musicological or hi-fi related, I hope she sticks around and continues to stick it to The Man (Men?) Surely, in 2014, we can desist from lazy misogyny/gender stereotypes/sexism when making our points, can't we? There are far too few women here without loyal members being driven away!

Festina lente.

We need to cool this debate. As we age the quality of our hearing diminishes. There are parts of instrumental ranges that I, sadly, no longer hear. My organist has built a marvellous 4 -manual digital organ. When he plays the top notes of some solo ranks I can hardly hear them and, in some cases, hear nothing. I think a concern for what we used to call "hi-fi" diminishes with advancing age, too, for all too obvious reasons to the objective observer. It's important that we "diminished" hearers recognise that others may hear a far wider and brighter spectrum of sound. A time there was when I loved pieces which "showcased" orchestras, now I major in structure and content. MY LOSS!

Many of us love Jayne's reviews because age has yet to wither her and her engagment and enthusiasm are truly enviable. Add in a "way with words" and you have a source of inspiration and delight.


I enjoy hs's comments, too, partly since , once upon a time in Bournemouth, he was the source of sounds and I their youthful recipient. But, more than that, he remains loyal to R.3: he listens whilst others cast their tackle wider to net worldwide networks and ever-available databases, such as Spotify.

There is no doubt, to my mind, that acoustics in a concert hall and reproduction systems at home are capable of enhancing or destroying our aural experience. I've written on a Nielsen thread about my sole experience of King George's Hall in Blackburn - an acoustic to die for. HS & I will surely still be dribbling in our respective dotages about the acoustic beauties of Bournemouth's lost Winter Gardens ( built as a bowling green!).
A busy life stopped me from upgrading my "hi-fi" for 25 years. Now, I have the time ( & enough money) to put that right but I don't because...

I say to Jayne,"Use it & flaunt it, before you, too, lose the ability to fully appreciate it."