Imaginary conducting debut

[Simon]

Good idea for a thread Ali. Nice one!

[Cellini]

Besides, as a conductor I'm sure I'd make myself quite unpopular among the musicians by being so nitpicky...I can just imagine Cellini hunched over, grumbling to his stand mate and rolling his eyes at me. Of course, I'd take it personally and grind him mercilessly, forcing him to play the disputed passage in question over and over in front of everybody. By this time, the whole orchestra hates me--and the night of the performance, good old C plays it the way he wanted to all along.

Realistic enough for you?

What you don't understand Eudy, is that NO conductor is EVER taken seriously by the orchestra, and they are usually ignored, are not watched, not listened to, or given any credence. They can be tolerated, just, or allowed to think they know it all, so as to finish the rehearsal earlier maybe, and get to the pub.

They are a few exceptions where the conductor is a truly great musician, but these conductors are as rare as hen's teeth.

Mostly conductors are a burden that the orchestra has to bear. (And by the way, a conductor picking on a player would be told to get stuffed, with the orchestra refusing to play, or even walking out. Like in the Middle East, despots are finding life hard).

[Eudaimonia]

Oh dear. I suppose that settles that, then.

[umslopogaas]

I can readily understand where Cellini (post 47) is coming from. Here we have a thick-skinned, thoroughly competent professional with a long experience of the repertoire and a decided view of how it should be played. Why does he need a conductor to tell him how to play it? Well, ....

Firstly, the not insubstantial problem that an orchestra consists of maybe a hundred Cellini-type musicians and they all have opinions. That's a hundred different opinions for every bar. Without someone to impose a way forward, you'll have chaos, or some sort of musical mud.

Secondly, the small matter of time. I'm not a musician and I expect to be enlightened on this by those who are, but is it not rather important, in a passage where a hundred musicians are playing together, to have a clear indication of downbeat? Even if a conductor does nothing more than just beat time, that's a necessary minimum. I once heard a story about Furtwangler (presumably even Cellini would allow him into the pantheon of real greats). Apparently Furtwangler's beat was so vague he did not so much mark time as wave at it in a vaguely amiable manner as it passed on its natural way. A Berlin Phil player who was interviewed about this and asked how on earth they coped said something like, oh we just close our eyes and hope for the best .

Thirdly, its an unfortunate fact for most orchestras that audiences arent interested in the orchestra, but in who is directing them. Do we pay money to hear the Wherever SO, or to hear the famous name conducting them? I'm afraid its at least as much the latter as the former.

And lastly, if conductors are so unecessary, why do even the most glittering orchestras always have one? I'm sure the Berlin Phil, the LSO or the Vienna Phil can play at least standard repertoire without a conductor, but they dont. Perhaps they grind their teeth and accept my third point (above). But perhaps, the conductor really does have something to contribute that is not only worthwhile, but essential.

OK Cellini, tell me how it really is.

[Cellini]

I can readily understand where Cellini (post 47) is coming from. Here we have a thick-skinned, thoroughly competent professional with a long experience of the repertoire and a decided view of how it should be played. Why does he need a conductor to tell him how to play it? Well, ....

Firstly, the not insubstantial problem that an orchestra consists of maybe a hundred Cellini-type musicians and they all have opinions. That's a hundred different opinions for every bar. Without someone to impose a way forward, you'll have chaos, or some sort of musical mud.

Secondly, the small matter of time. I'm not a musician and I expect to be enlightened on this by those who are, but is it not rather important, in a passage where a hundred musicians are playing together, to have a clear indication of downbeat? Even if a conductor does nothing more than just beat time, that's a necessary minimum. I once heard a story about Furtwangler (presumably even Cellini would allow him into the pantheon of real greats). Apparently Furtwangler's beat was so vague he did not so much mark time as wave at it in a vaguely amiable manner as it passed on its natural way. A Berlin Phil player who was interviewed about this and asked how on earth they coped said something like, oh we just close our eyes and hope for the best .

Thirdly, its an unfortunate fact for most orchestras that audiences arent interested in the orchestra, but in who is directing them. Do we pay money to hear the Wherever SO, or to hear the famous name conducting them? I'm afraid its at least as much the latter as the former.

And lastly, if conductors are so unecessary, why do even the most glittering orchestras always have one? I'm sure the Berlin Phil, the LSO or the Vienna Phil can play at least standard repertoire without a conductor, but they dont. Perhaps they grind their teeth and accept my third point (above). But perhaps, the conductor really does have something to contribute that is not only worthwhile, but essential.

OK Cellini, tell me how it really is.

You seem to have understood the basic facts quite well!!

The average orchestra and performances usually need a bit less than 100 players - about 70 is the norm.

It is a fact (probably!) that some of the players do not have a strict opinion on how each bar should be played, and it's also true that not all the orchestra hold the conductor in such a bad light as some ... (I'm not guilty of that as you will all know ... ) I would personally say that in my experience, about 75% of the first fiddles, 99% of the violas, cellos, and D Basses, and 90% of the wind and brass would have various feelings about conductors, from fairly strong to very strong. (Dislike). That doesn't leave many - probably 50% of second fiddles and a few assorted others who feel a bit more sympathetic to conductors, although even this can change from day to day, week to week!!

Concerning the time and down beats etc., apart from the first up or down beat we don't really need 'em (and the leader or section leader can do that anyway). We use a cunning little device which enables us to keep together, just like in chamber musak. It's called a pair of ears!! That's why outstanding carvers like Noddy can stop conducting and let the band get on with it. He may only join in at moments when his EARS tell him he could help, such as a GP bar, a rit, or accellerando. All those conductors (like that one who thrashes around in front of the BPO) have serious failings in the aural department and so they feel they have the God given right to interfere in every bar, and make sure they ruin the show.

Yes, I hold Furtwangler in high esteem. He didn't need to conduct like the time beaters (bandmasters - e.g. Toscanini) because (a) he could impart tempo by other means and (b) he was a musician. The general public believes that you need someone there to beat out each beat and throw themselves around - and really all such behaviour accomplishes is a bad performance. If conductors want to throw themselves around I just wish they would find some nice cliff top or high roofed building to do it from. The best conductors I've played for hardly move, and the public probably think they have a poor beat, and don't try hard enough.

You are right, the public want conductors. It's because they don't understand that much about music, and are awestruck by the celeb cult. They think the guy in front doing the acrobatics is the entire show. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In derence to the real conductors who are fine musicians, I would say they do add to the performances, but how many of these has there been in the last 75 years? Worlwide possibly no more than a dozen. (Don't ask me to name them, I'm spending too much time on here as it is, trying to educate the public ...)

[Curalach]

I have given much thought to Alison's original question before contributing to this thread.

One of the seminal moments in my early love of music was attending a concert in 1960, in Glasgow's late lamented St Andrews Hall, at which the UK premiere of Gruppen by Stockhausen was performed.
The orchestra was the, then, Scottish National augmented by the, then, BBC Scottish split into three groups for the performance. The conductors were Alexander Gibson, Norman Del Mar and John Carewe.

It is my intention to mount a performance of this piece with the conductors being myself, of course, together with Cellini and the winner of the FoR3 Forum Conductors Competition, details to be announced.
The orchestra will be a scratch band put together in much the same way as Gergiev's World Orchestra for Peace and I am hoping that my good friend Cellini will be able to suggest a suitable fixer.

The performance will be informed by Cellini's valuable insights about the role of the conductor. My plan is that we will simultaneously give a downbeat to start proceedings and then slope off to the pub together with both members of the audience.
We will arrange for SuffolkCoastal, who can apparently count, to alert us to the impending conclusion, at which point we will return in time for the final downbeat and a deserved ovation. The latter will depend on whether or not the audience remains in the pub.

Perhaps due to the challenging and unconventional nature of the event it has not been possible, at this stage, to plan a second concert.

[Cellini]

I have given much thought to Alison's original question before contributing to this thread.

One of the seminal moments in my early love of music was attending a concert in 1960, in Glasgow's late lamented St Andrews Hall, at which the UK premiere of Gruppen by Stockhausen was performed.
The orchestra was the, then, Scottish National augmented by the, then, BBC Scottish split into three groups for the performance. The conductors were Alexander Gibson, Norman Del Mar and John Carewe.

It is my intention to mount a performance of this piece with the conductors being myself, of course, together with Cellini and the winner of the FoR3 Forum Conductors Competition, details to be announced.
The orchestra will be a scratch band put together in much the same way as Gergiev's World Orchestra for Peace and I am hoping that my good friend Cellini will be able to suggest a suitable fixer.

The performance will be informed by Cellini's valuable insights about the role of the conductor. My plan is that we will simultaneously give a downbeat to start proceedings and then slope off to the pub together with both members of the audience.
We will arrange for SuffolkCoastal, who can apparently count, to alert us to the impending conclusion, at which point we will return in time for the final downbeat and a deserved ovation. The latter will depend on whether or not the audience remains in the pub.

Perhaps due to the challenging and unconventional nature of the event it has not been possible, at this stage, to plan a second concert.

Sounds like a great idea!! I'd suggest S Rattle as fixer, but on second thoughts maybe he's not able to fix anything ...

The pub will play an important part in the proceedings as it will lubricate all the difficult bits, and help the conductor get his arms up high enough to count.

As is usual with orchestras, we will give the conductor a lot of support and will refrain from pointing out the mistakes that he/she is making - unless they happen more than once in every bar.

Of course, as is always the case with orchestras, we will treat the conductor with the utmost politeness, and save any slagging off until much later in the pub, and only after he/she has gone. *

* Not like a certain player in well known band that slagged off a famous conductor to me, within the conductor's hearing. I just hope his understanding of English was not so good.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Forget waht I said earlier. I would like to conduct Elgar's Caractacus from the pit of the Royal Opera House. This would be the first ever staging of a work the composer himself would have liked to be performed in this way. I've already made detailed sketches of the staging.

[EdgeleyRob]

I'm not in the least bit musically trained,can't read music or play an instrument.
When I have the house to myself I occasionally like to play at conducting the music I'm listening to using a pen as a baton.
Only the other day I gave a marvelous performance of RVW 8.
If listening to piano music I also sometimes pretend to play an imaginary keyboard whilst sat in my comfy chair.
There's got to be a musician in me just dying to get out hasn't there ?.
Don't tell anyone.

[teamsaint]

We won't tell.
i think John Candy felt the same emotions.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nut5sJFjRkk

[Alison]

Just revisiting an old thread.

Anyone fancy having another bite of the cherry?

[Petrushka]

How wonderful to read some of these posts again especially those from the much missed dear Chris Newman.

I'll think up another couple of programmes anon.

[Alison]

And I fancy your take on the Resurrection has subtly shifted over the months, Pet !

[Alison]

What has happened to dear Curalach ?

[Petrushka]

And I fancy your take on the Resurrection has subtly shifted over the months, Pet !

Yes, I think you could say that. It must be the same for real conductors whose interpretations shift with life's experiences.

Another couple of fantasy programmes I'd give:

Programme 1

Strauss: Don Juan
Mozart: Clarinet Concerto
Shostakovich: Symphony No 5

Programme 2

Tippett: Symphony No 4
Bruckner: Symphony No 7

The first is an LP programme I used to do quite often back in the 1980s. Rattle did the second with the CBSO and it's a stunning programme.