Berlin Philharmonic- the world's best?

[Mr Pee]

Here's an article from the Guardian in which Fiona Maddocks says that the BPO under the inspired directorship of Sir Simon Rattle are undoubtedly the world's best orchestra. Personally, I would agree with that assessment- I think they have a commitment and collective musicality that raises them to a unique level- and that's before we begin on the individual qualities of the players, or the sheer beauty of sound of the ensemble.

Do we agree?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/feb/27/berlin-philharmonic-best-orchestra-maddocks

[Roehre]

No. The same applies to the Concertgebouw and Janssons.

[Cellini]

I don't agree at all. I personally think the BPO has gone downhill in the last few years. But who cares, it's only an orchestra.

[Cellini]

Anyway, I would ask, what does Fiona Maddocks really know about music?

I just wonder, because her description about the leaders (or 1st violins) start to Schubert's "Quartettsatz" and then the subsequent players entries is rubbish. I've played this work and it starts with a tremolando.

This is not to say that there are not some fine players in the band, its just that they no longer have the BPO sound, especially the strings.

[Mr Pee]

Yes, 4tetsatz starts with a tremolando, but the 1st Violin then enters with a theme. I think you're nit-picking there.

And what is this BPO sound that you think they no longer have? Do you mean the luxuriant Karajan sound, which was often criticized as too smooth, too "perfect"?

At the moment they have an incredibly rich sonority, especially the strings. Just listen to their recent Brahms symphony cycle, and then tell me their sound is anything less than wonderful.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I would generally prefer the Vienna Philharmonic, but hey, I'm getting drawn into a Gramophone-style comparison which wreaks of government league tables .

[antongould]

I know the experts say us novices should give our views but I feel it's a mistake even as I type - but given that I don't listen to as much live music as I should I have to say everything I have heard from them recently I've enjoyed very, very much. I would never of course disagree with the Grauniad and would say my highlight of last year was the Schoenburg, Berg, Webern part of Prom 66.

[Petrushka]

I find little to separate the BPO, VPO and Concertgebouw in terms of their 'commitment and collective musicality that raises them to a unique level'. All three would qualify as world's finest at any given time either now or in the past.

[Cellini]

Yes, 4tetsatz starts with a tremolando, but the 1st Violin then enters with a theme. I think you're nit-picking there.

And what is this BPO sound that you think they no longer have? Do you mean the luxuriant Karajan sound, which was often criticized as too smooth, too "perfect"?

At the moment they have an incredibly rich sonority, especially the strings. Just listen to their recent Brahms symphony cycle, and then tell me their sound is anything less than wonderful.

Hello Mr Pee! Here we go again!

The sound, if we are going have to be hung up on sound, is OK. But I judge not only orchestras, but everything, on much, much more than sound.

But the BPO's performances seem to have lost their individuality. That is not to say one always agrees with any performing group or artist's individuality.

If things were different at the BPO I might find it more interesting to listen to them, not that I'm into orchestral music too much these days, although I do listen if its a concerto or something outstanding in the way of a composer. (Or EVEN conductor, but that is very rare).

Things appeared to be going well for the BPO when Abbado took over (a conductor I've played for, but who in the past I did not particularly admire). In his maturity he seems to have become a better musician. However, as we all know, he did not stay and things subsequently changed. You all know my views, they changed in my opinion very much for the worse.

Although I was not (but much more then than now) a HvK fan, I DO think the orchestra then was better than now. I never went for the "smooth sound" as you put it, because with other conductors they sounded less "smooth." What is smooth to some is rich to others. (Take the old Philadelphia sound for instance).

And I'm afraid my "nit picking," as you call it, still applies. And I base my opinion of Fiona Maddocks on other articles she has penned as well. I think she would be safer and more at home riding a horse, in the Home Counties!! :cool2:

[Uncle Monty]

I think I'm probably the mirror-image of Cellini, in that I'm a jobbing musician who's rather easy to please! Sometimes, in some performances, a mediocre orchestra, even an amateur one, can catch fire and deliver an unforgettable musical experience, and it is those moments one lives for, but at the high end of the market, from what I have seen and heard, in the flesh and on recordings, in the last few years, it seems to me that in their sheer class of playing, both individually and collectively, and consistent excellence in approach and "quality control", the BPO deliver every time.

They are also far more generous with themselves than, say, British orchestras. Compare their website with any of ours, where you can't even find out who the players are or where they've sprung from!

[Cellini]

I think I'm probably the mirror-image of Cellini, in that I'm a jobbing musician who's rather easy to please! Sometimes, in some performances, a mediocre orchestra, even an amateur one, can catch fire and deliver an unforgettable musical experience, and it is those moments one lives for, but at the high end of the market, from what I have seen and heard, in the flesh and on recordings, in the last few years, it seems to me that in their sheer class of playing, both individually and collectively, and consistent excellence in approach and "quality control", the BPO deliver every time.

They are also far more generous with themselves than, say, British orchestras. Compare their website with any of ours, where you can't even find out who the players are or where they've sprung from!

I'm not so sure that you are, Uncle!! You only see the critical ex-professional player speaking on here, generally speaking.

What I would say is that I in fact play a lot with amateurs these days, in chamber music. And obviously I get a lot out of it or I wouldn't do it. As it happens today I'm working in a trio, professional pianist and her daughter who is of professional standard even at about age 15 or 16. But I play in a string quartet of amateurs and semi-professionals. It depends on how you approach any judgements one might make - being very nit-picky with a group like the BPO or very constructive with a semi-pro/amateur quartet.

And I wouldn't argue that the BPO can't deliver, as they are obviously a highly skilled and polished group. But I would argue that they may have changed in a way that personally I now do not find so attractive.

Of course, as I hinted, orchestras change over time for the better and worse, (and visa versa) and that it can be due mostly to an outside influence, (and dare I mention it on such hallowed ground) such as a principal conductor.

[BBMmk2]

The Berlioner Phiolharmoniker is one of my favourite orchestras. I have recordings only dating from HvKs time but the Abbado Mahler cycle has to be one of best cycles of any cycle of any composer's work available

I do rather like the way Rattle has shaped the orchestrra.

The sound is different from thye days of HvK but every conductor has their own idea of how an orchestra should sound like?