How did HIPP begin?

[ostuni]

Interesting, certainly, but to my eyes (and ears), the writer seriously overstates his case. The only orchestra which approached modern standards of vibrato was the 1926 NYPO. But the BPO (1931) in Weber used vib decidedly less than they would have 50 years later. And I disagree with his assessment of that VPO Don Giovanni overture: no violinist is using 'considerable vibrato', and Rosé's occasional vibrato (just on long notes) is very mild. And, like several commentators, he has obviously never actually watched a present-day HIPP orchestra in performance: his theory seems to be that players play with absolutely no vibrato, which is just not true. It would be rare to see a HIPP orchestral violinist using vibrato as sparingly as does Rosé in this film. Fascinating films, but unconvincing analysis, I think.

[pastoralguy]

Back in the days when I played the violin a lot, I used to get into trouble for using portamenti whilst playing Elgar. 'Enough of your slipping and sliding ' I was told. 'But that's how Elgar did it', I would protest. 'Well, it's not correct unless the whole section is doing it', would be the response. 'Well, it's not my fault if my colleagues are musical ignoramuses...'

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Back in the days when I played the violin a lot, I used to get into trouble for using portamenti whilst playing Elgar. 'Enough of your slipping and sliding ' I was told. 'But that's how Elgar did it', I would protest. '

Yes and no .

It was a custom at the time, but it changed during the composer's lifetime, and Elgar apparently did not attempt to influence this either way.

[doversoul1]

Do we know the academic credential of the author of this article? His name doesn’t appear on the first couple of pages of Google Scholar. It is always interesting (and often rather amusing) to read these articles, so thank you, Caliban, but maybe we shouldn’t get too excited about what it says.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Do we know the academic credential of the author of this article? His name doesn’t appear on the first couple of pages of Google Scholar. It is always interesting (and often rather amusing) to read these articles, so thank you, Caliban, but maybe we shouldn’t get too excited about what it says.

Consider the evidence presented. Do not "attack" the individual - a method generally used when the argument isn't going one's way.

[ostuni]

So far, I'm the only one to have actually commented on the video evidence in the article - I'd be interested to read what others think.

[subcontrabass]

Do we know the academic credential of the author of this article? His name doesn’t appear on the first couple of pages of Google Scholar. It is always interesting (and often rather amusing) to read these articles, so thank you, Caliban, but maybe we shouldn’t get too excited about what it says.

His profile on LinkedIn states:

"I am a London-based music producer, writer, editor & documentary film maker. I have been involved in a number of music projects including Kevin Bazzana's award-winning book 'Lost Genius', and Angelo Villani's debut album 'Angelo Villani Plays Dante's Inferno'. I am currently the CEO of Sonetto Classics Limited, London. Please visit www.sonettoclassics.com and www.fugue.us for viewing my work.

As a scientist, I have published a number of bioscience articles in top-ranked journals, and have been awarded by world-leading scientific organisations including the American Society of Hematology, Leukemia and Lymphoma Society, Japan Science and Technology Agency, etc. After leaving the Institute of Cancer Research, London, where I worked as a team leader, I currently work at Envision Pharma Group, Horsham."

See https://uk.linkedin.com/in/tomoyuki-sawado-5a1460b4 for more details of his qualifications and career.

[doversoul1]

Consider the evidence presented. Do not "attack" the individual - a method generally used when the argument isn't going one's way.

When HIPP debate is about post Baroque works, it doesn’t concerns me either way all that much, so I am safely sitting on the wall where Sir Roger is concerned. However I can’t say I can take an article seriously when it makes a statement like this without presenting evidence. And are the latter materials used by Hurwitz not written documents?

Norrington mainly relied upon recordings and probably some written documents to make his case; Hurwitz, by contrast, examined a vast number of letters, articles, interviews, and musical scores

Besides, how seriously can these very short video pieces, and just half a dozen as to that, be taken seriously as evidence to base any argument on? What was his criteria of the selection? Something to suits his argument? Of if these are all that is available, can it be considered adequate enough to support an argument? Still it’s quite a fun to see how people go on about it

Subcontrabass #37
Oh, I see. That’s him too. Yes, plenty of articles by him about ‘sister stem cells’ and some such.

[ostuni]

Agreed, just a few video examples, some of them very short. Still, however they were chosen, I really don't think they do adequately support the argument he puts forward, as I've suggested already in #31.

[vinteuil]

... wasn't Elgar's first premiered in 1908? Quite a long time before any of the 1920s / 1930s videos considered by M Sawado here.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

So far, I'm the only one to have actually commented on the video evidence in the article - I'd be interested to read what others think.

As you suggest, it's not really conclusive. I thought my reference to Elgar's 1914 recording of Carissima, with its ample vibrato, was conclusive enough, but Bryn put forward an interesting suggestion that casts a small amount of doubt even on this, i.e. that the players may have been compensating for the very limited sound possible on the recording equipment of the time.

[ahinton]

In an attempt directly to answer the question posed in the thread topic, might I submit that it was when its initiator created and first uttered the HIPPocratic oath?

[ardcarp]

I wonder if someone who is a string player would like to post about, er, strings! In other words, what were violin strings like in the 18th century, the 19th century, and when did 'metal' strings become the norm? How is a latterday Hippster's violin strung when, for instance, playing the Baroque repertoire? And how strung for the classical repertory...and ditto for the early 20th century? My father was a violinist, and I think when he learned in the early 1900s his violin had gut strings for all except the E-string. (I am not sure about this, however.)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

My father was a violinist, and I think when he learned in the early 1900s his violin had gut strings for all except the E-string. (I am not sure about this, however.)

My mother had that combination of strings, and she still had them when she last played in 2006. She first learnt to play in 1928, and was taught "continuous" vibrato from a Hallé player who had played in the 1908 Elgar première - again, this is not conclusive evidence that it was commonplace 20 years earlier.

[Dave2002]

Yes and no .

It was a custom at the time, but it changed during the composer's lifetime, and Elgar apparently did not attempt to influence this either way.

One of Mackerras' recordings of Elgar symphonies (can't remember which one right now) was done deliberately with portamenti. I think it's now available as a coupling of both symphonies from Australian Eloquence. It's very good.

http://www.buywell.com/cgi-bin/buywellic2/12327.html

I think it's the RPO performance, but the listing here doesn't tell me which is which. It'd take a while for me to find my CD.

Also available here - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Symph.../dp/B000XFZSCC