Can we talk about Monteverdi?

[pilamenon]

I hope this is the right place, or should this be on the "Talking About Music" board?
Anyway, I've nearly finished listening to the Coronation of Poppea, and wanted to know if anyone else agrees that this is some of the most astonishing, challenging, sophisticated, remarkable and utterly beautiful music ever written? One of those occasional moments in listening when you think, this is simply extraordinary - how could I have overlooked Monteverdi for so long? Sometimes, the harmonies and vocal writing sound like a late 20th century vocal work! The death of Seneca scene, for example, and perhaps most astonishing of all, the scene where Arnalta sings Poppea to sleep.

The recording in question - by La Venexiana - was issued last year. Ian Honeyman plays Arnalta. That overused word "amazing" really is justified here. I've read a slightly dogma-bound review that was a bit sniffy about some of the cast's credentials in this music, but honestly can't recommend this highly enough for the vocal drama and gorgeous accompaniments.

Apparently there are those who believe this work is a compendium by different composers. Are there any Monteverdians out who would agree or disagree? And what else should I be listening to? I only vaguely know a few madrigals and parts of the Vespers.

[doversoul1]

pilamenon
The disc you mention was CD Review’s Disc of the Week (I expect you remember it, too). AM writes here about the question of the composer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/reviews/q6nv

If I remember correctly, AM played a few other performances including one with Janet Baker.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/jun/10/monteverdi-coronation-of-poppea-baker

[ed] And what else should I be listening to? I only vaguely know a few madrigals and parts of the Vespers
I second the query (can you ‘second’ a query?)

[Serial_Apologist]

Several years ago I bought a CD of madrigals by Monteverdi, including "Tancredi and Chlorinda", having read somewhere that this composer was responsible for a change of direction in the Western "classical" music tradition. Having been familiar with Palestrina, Tallis, Victoria, Byrd etc., I was astonished to find myself hearing an idiom which seemed to announce the harmonies and orchestrations of J.S. Bach and his contemporaries, a hundred years ahead! Subsequently I discovered the music of Monteverdi's contemporaries, especially Frescobaldi - the early Baroque period, which I now find more interesting and attractive than the other end of the period, with so much still to discover.

S-A

[pilamenon]

Thanks for those links, doversoul. I either missed or ignored it when it was on CD Review. Glad to hear it was highly praised. The view put forward by Andrew McGregor seems, as the reply to his review suggests, by no means universally shared, although "Pur ti miro", the final love duet, does, at least in this performance, sound unlike anything else in the opera. The accompaniment makes it sound like a sophisticated pop ballad! In fact I was wondering what it reminded me of. I was particularly taken throughout by the voice of Roberta Mameli, so perfect in the role of the smitten Nero.

Anyway, Monteverdi or not, the music seems, as S-A says, just so far ahead of its place in time.

[MickyD]

Harmonia Mundi have recently re-released the three operas recorded by René Jacobs in an attractive edition. Jacobs has always come in for a lot of criticism, particularly regarding his instrumental decisions. Because of all the differing opinions and my not appreciating the early baroque repertoire as much as the later, I have always fought shy of buying the Monteverdi operas. I am told that the EMI version of "Orfeo" with Nigel Rogers and London Baroque is one of the very best available. As for Poppea, I still haven't come to a decision as to which version to buy.

Am I right in saying that early baroque in general requires a greater deal of concentration than the later? I have a set of Frescobaldi keyboard music performed admirably on historic instruments by Christopher Hogwood, but I just find that my attention wanders when listening to the pieces. That's my problem, of course, but does anyone else feel the same?

[doversoul1]

pilamenon

"Pur ti miro", the final love duet, does, at least in this performance, sound unlike anything else in the opera. The accompaniment makes it sound like a sophisticated pop ballad!

When R3 was more than half drowning in opera last year, I was trying to get the R3 MB members to talk about Monteverdi (and Vivaldi) but nobody was interested. Come to that not even Handel was discussed at any length. It seems that opera didn’t exist before Mozart to a lot of ‘opera lovers’. Baroque opera seems to be a genre of its own. And for sounding like pop ballad, (again, I’m sure you have it or know about it), Christina Pluhar does just that with her L’Arpeggiata (with the unmissable Philippe Jaroussky) in Monteverdi Teatro d’Amore. SMP described one of the tracks as ‘Monteverdi crossed with Pink Panther’ or something to the effect but Pluhar’s note is an interesting read.

http://www.teatrodamore.com/

Back to Poppea, I don’t think there is a recording but you might be interested in this. There are a few Youtube videos

http://www.operanews.com/Opera_News_Magazine/2010/9/Review/MADRID__L_Incoronazine_di_Poppea.html

MickyD
I often wonder what music was to the people in those days. Composed music played on the instrument other than pipes and fiddles must have sounded literally heavenly. I don’t mean that those works did not need any depth but it may be that music was not meant to be listened to as it was but it was something that was capable of releasing your thoughts into somewhere, I don’t know, beyond the earthly life?

[pilamenon]

MickyD

The recording I've been sampling is this one. Its producer seems to think most of it isn't by Monteverdi (!), and if you're a purist, you may not appreciate all the vocal styles on offer, but some of it is quite staggeringly dramatic and/or beautiful.
Try the finale extract to see what I mean.

doversoul

Yes, I've heard extracts from that Pluhar-Jaroussky project, and enjoyed it, though whether it'd bear repeated listening, am less sure. Why baroque or early opera should be less interesting to opera lovers is hard to say. It's probably more challenging - Monteverdi certainly is! I'm also more interested historically in some of the subject matter.

(A pity that the poster "arcades" is not here - as he/she had quite an interest in this area.)

[MickyD]

Thanks, doversoul and pilamenon. I seem to recall Andrew MacGregor being very enthusiastic about that Venexiana recording - I must try and hear some extacts for myself. There's no doubt in my mind that early opera is more challenging, not least because of the enormous amounts of recitative involved, which can be very hard going to the untrained ear. But that was clearly not a problem for audiences of the day, who knew their classics and poetry and surely had more time to devote to them than we do today!

[mikerotheatrenestr0y]

I enjoyed Konrad Junghaenel's 3CD Selva Morale e Spirituale, which is Monteverdi's complete sacred music, compled and edited by himself. As for the madrigals, I think small doses taken repeatedly until familiarity breeds adoration. Especially adorable are the non-HIPP performances by Nadia Boulanger, particularly as they include the late, great Hugues Cuenod:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl83etKIpbU

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyigIcK8bwk&feature=related

I have very fond memories of Welsh National's Poppaea, which I saw live in Southampton, and which was then broadcast on TV in 45 minute episodes.

[pilamenon]

On the other hand, just sampled "Lamento della ninfa" (saxophone) and "Ohime ch'io cado" (double bass) from this latest Venexiana offering and it's most definitely one to avoid.

[vinteuil]

I thank MickyD for flagging up the Jacobs - I already had his Ritorno, but clearly will have to get his Orfeo and Poppaea...

I have on my shelves JEG Poppaea and Orfeo, don't listen to them much these days - too JEG...
Also all three with Harnoncourt, now sounding very dated (1981? but sounding earlier... )

The Venexiana Poppaea is marvellous.

A recent set which I have enjoyed is that with Gabriel Garrido and Ensemble Elyma on K617 (1996/1998/2000) - well worth seeking out...

But I'm looking forward to hearing the René Jacobs!

[doversoul1]

Pilamenon
The best way to get people to look at things is to tell them not to look. So I did (re: "Lamento della ninfa" and "Ohime ch'io cado). They also have a video of a complete ‘concert’ of Poppea on their website. I’d stick to the CD.

The Sixteen did some ‘jazzed-up’ Monteverdi with Julian Joseph some while ago. It wasn’t awful but I couldn’t really see any point.

As for madrigals, Stephen Johnson was very enthusiastic about I Fagiolini when their disc first came out but Hilary Finch dismissed it as too English middle class. On this matter, I don’t completely disagree with her.

[MickyD]

Maybe I should also mention that some of the operas are available on DVD - René Jacobs has done "Orfeo" (in Brussels?), again with Harmonia Mundi, and there is also an attractive "period" looking production by Jordi Savall done, I think, in Barcelona.

Vinteuil, the Jacobs Orfeo CD is very good indeed, but I haven't heard the Poppaea - I think it was generally well received.

[doversoul1]

Any thoughts about Monteverdi as a composer and how to think about his music, and how his music is performed today? It may be plain revision to a lot of MB members but I’d be very interested in learning all this.

[Il Grande Inquisitor]

pilamenon

Christina Pluhar does just that with her L’Arpeggiata (with the unmissable Philippe Jaroussky) in Monteverdi Teatro d’Amore. SMP described one of the tracks as ‘Monteverdi crossed with Pink Panther’ or something to the effect but Pluhar’s note is an interesting read.

http://www.teatrodamore.com/

Jaroussky is quite 'straight-laced' on the CD version. This is more... unbuttoned!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LJKp9_wilk

Monteverdi with swing.