Music for Richard III

[ardcarp]

I'm chipping in to this thread from the totally irrelevant standpoint of having just (literally) returned from Leicester, having seen the Richard III exhibition in The Guildhall (no real bones on show, alas!) and having seen the now re-tarmac-ed car park. The adjacent St Martin's (very close to Greyfriars) was only elevated to cathedral-hood in 1927. Whilst it has medieval beginnings, its interior is a Victorian restoration of a 15th century building and its aura is firmly Anglican. How a Catholic interment ceremony would go down with the burghers of Leicester I am not quite sure...nor indeed 15th century polyphony with Leicester cathedral choir. There is, however, already a dignified grey memorial tablet to RIII laid in the choir. This will presumably be the site of his final resting place?

[Nick Armstrong]

I like this idea for an Early Music Show - I'll mention it to my masters tomorrow!

Now that's interactive!!

[Miles Coverdale]

Missa Caput is either French or Burgundian (as I implied in #3), or a mix.

Assuming we're talking about the same piece, I think it's much more probable (if not indeed certain) that it is English in origin. One of its sources is the Lucca Choirbook, which (according to Reinhard Strohm) ‘was created, in c. 1463, for the chapel of the English Merchant Adventurers, a leading trade company based in Bruges. The chapel, in the Carmelite friary of the town, was then sponsored by King Edward IV and by the new governor of the company, William Caxton'. It is rather more likely that such an institution would choose music by English composers than Continental ones. Parts of it are also found in two fragmentary English manuscripts which had been used in book bindings.

Moreover, the Kyrie is troped. It was this that first alerted scholars to the fact that the Mass could not be by Dufay (as was once thought), but was rather by an English composer. The setting of troped Kyries was, in the 15th century, a peculiarly English habit. This, together with the fact that the chant used as the cantus firmus of the Mass is from the Use of Salisbury, identifies it as being of English origin.

[jean]

...The setting of troped Kyries was, in the 15th century, a peculiarly English habit.

I didn't know there were any settings of troped Kyries - the three Western wind masses don't set the Kyrie at all, allowing for whatever troped Kyrie was deemed appropriate for any particular occasion.

This, together with the fact that the chant used as the cantus firmus of the Mass is from the Use of Salisbury, identifies it as being of English origin.

I'd love to hear it.

But if this fantasy-mass for Richard is to be a Requiem, there won't be much of the music that can be used.

[Roehre]

I like this idea for an Early Music Show - I'll mention it to my masters tomorrow!

That really would be great

[Roehre]

Assuming we're talking about the same piece, I think it's much more probable (if not indeed certain) that it is English in origin. One of its sources is the Lucca Choirbook, which (according to Reinhard Strohm) ‘was created, in c. 1463, for the chapel of the English Merchant Adventurers, a leading trade company based in Bruges. The chapel, in the Carmelite friary of the town, was then sponsored by King Edward IV and by the new governor of the company, William Caxton'. It is rather more likely that such an institution would choose music by English composers than Continental ones. Parts of it are also found in two fragmentary English manuscripts which had been used in book bindings.

Moreover, the Kyrie is troped. It was this that first alerted scholars to the fact that the Mass could not be by Dufay (as was once thought), but was rather by an English composer. The setting of troped Kyries was, in the 15th century, a peculiarly English habit. This, together with the fact that the chant used as the cantus firmus of the Mass is from the Use of Salisbury, identifies it as being of English origin.

MC: Sorry for the misunderstanding: you quoted me correctly, but it is not what I meant to write (see #3):
It should have been "Missa Caput" is either English or Burgundian...or a mix". My mistake.

It is the troped Kyrie which points more than anything else to the possibly/likely English origin of (at least parts of) the Missa Caput.

Flanders -as county of the Netherlands which for the best part were ruled by the Burgundian dukes- was (therefore) quite firmly at the English side during the 100 years war. Brugge being Burgundy's main port -and part of the Hanseatic League- means that it was a place which was -generally speaking- more than any other of the greater cities within the Burgundy-governed counties under its court's social and cultural influence.

As long as it hasn't been established beyond doubt that the work is by one composer, and not a pastiche, we unfortunately cannot define the Missa Caput as English, though obviously there are strong reasons to accept that at least parts of it are.

My personal view FWIW is, that it actually is a pastiche put together from mass-movements from England as well as from Burgundy (Dufay e.g.).

Whatever, it is one of the most influential pieces in the 15th century anyway, and as such already a worthy work to be performed at Richard III's funeral/burial.

[doversoul1]

I like this idea for an Early Music Show - I'll mention it to my masters tomorrow!

Looking forward very much to hearing the result.

[Roehre]

....But if this fantasy-mass for Richard is to be a Requiem, there won't be much of the music that can be used.

AFAIK Apart from Ockeghem's Missa pro Defunctis there exists only one (fragment of) an anonymous contemporary polyphonic Requiem mass .

[jean]

...The adjacent St Martin's (very close to Greyfriars) was only elevated to cathedral-hood in 1927. Whilst it has medieval beginnings, its interior is a Victorian restoration of a 15th century building and its aura is firmly Anglican...

I'm not quite sure what an Anglican aura is, especially as there are Anglicans who firmly believe their Church is the true continuation of the pre-Reformation church...there was some discussion of this on the other thread (starting at #293).

But as the possibility of a reconstruction of an appropriate commemorative rite for Richard may take place somewhere, whether in Leicester or on Radio 3 (which I'm looking forward to as eagerly as everyone else here!) I'll repost here a few relevant posts from the other thread:


...In 1984 a proper funeral service according to the Use of Sarum was given to the bodies
of the crew of several hundred sailors from the English Tudor warship Mary
Rose, which had sunk in the Solent...back in 1545, after the point when King
Henry VIII had broken with the Pope but before the appearance of new
burial rites in the first English Prayer Book of 1549. There was much
discussion of what to do after the sailors were raised from the deep in 1982,
and they were finally given solemn burial in 1984 with both Anglican and
Roman Catholic clergy participating in the service at Portsmouth Cathedral
according to the old Sarum rites of Requiem that they would have expected
in 1545. The ordinary of the Mass was in Latin with the lessons, bidding
prayer, Lord’s Prayer, and committal in English, and the music was of that
era, by John Taverner, Christopher Tye, and Thomas Tallis.

The polyphony mentioned there is far too late, of course.

.

[jean]

...How a Catholic interment ceremony would go down with the burghers of Leicester I am not quite sure...

I think they could cope. I'm told tickets for the Sixteen's Choral Pilgrimage to Leicester are selling well.

Also from the other thread, here's the reply I got from Leicester Cathedral when I put some of these suggestions to them:

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for being in touch with us following the announcement that the human remains found on
the site of the former Greyfriars within the parish of St Martin Leicester are those of King Richard III.
The City Mayor and the Vice Chancellor as the relevant legal parties have requested that Leicester
Cathedral now take steps to inter these remains in order to enact the requirements of the licence
issued by the Ministry of Justice which permitted the exhumation of these remains. Burying King
Richard III in Leicester Cathedral conforms to the best archaeological practice and conforms to the
precedence set elsewhere within our national Church and State story.

The Bishop of Leicester with the Cathedral Chapter have carefully considered this request and are
beginning to plan how this might happen. We will begin to plan an appropriate location and design
for a permanent memorial to King Richard which will provide honour and dignity, and allow for the
wider use of the Cathedral as a place of daily prayer and the place which gathers the diocese and
wider community on major occasions. We will also begin to plan the liturgy which will take a Church
of England character but which will draw on our rich Christian heritage. It will not technically be a
funeral but an interment and memorial. We will plan to involve ecumenical guests and to invite
representatives from all the faiths in Leicester.

We have had a large volume of correspondence and are sorry that we are unable to reply
individually to the letters and emails received. We would however, like to confirm that all
correspondence has been read and considered. Details will be posted on both our Cathedral and
Diocesan websites as the plans emerge.

Yours sincerely,

Rt Revd Tim Stevens, Bishop of Leicester & Canon Barry Naylor, Acting Dean


along with a covering email, which said


Dear Jean,

Thank you for your email which provides very interesting reading. Please see the
attached letter from the Bishop of Leicester and Acting Dean of the Cathedral
and be assured that your email will be passed on for consultation and
consideration.

Once again with grateful thanks for taking the time to write to the cathedral
with such detailed information.

Kind regards

Julia

[Flosshilde]

I'm chipping in to this thread from the totally irrelevant standpoint of having just (literally) returned from Leicester, ... There is, however, already a dignified grey memorial tablet to RIII laid in the choir. This will presumably be the site of his final resting place?

Possibly the one referred to in this letter to the Guardian last week -

In 1980 my late husband David Kindersley and I were on our knees in Leicester Cathedral carving the gravestone for Richard III – the only king not to have had a memorial until then. I do hope he will now be laid to rest under it.
Lida Kindersley
Cambridge

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2013/feb/14/urban-chickens-duffy-pope

[french frank]

Possibly the one referred to in this letter to the Guardian last week -

In 1980 my late husband David Kindersley and I were on our knees in Leicester Cathedral carving the gravestone for Richard III – the only king not to have had a memorial until then. I do hope he will now be laid to rest under it.
Lida Kindersley
Cambridge
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardia...ens-duffy-pope

This one?

[ardcarp]

That's the one.

[french frank]

That's the one.

I have to say I'm somewhat revisionist as regards suitable music, form/place of service &c. He is being reinterred in 2013, not 1485 ...

But research is always fun

[Roehre]

I have to say I'm somewhat revisionist as regards suitable music, form/place of service &c. He is being reinterred in 2013, not 1485 ...

But research is always fun

FF, the discussion was triggered not so much as to determine music which might be performed during the 2013 re-burial, as by the question which music actually might have been heard by Richard III (see BBM # 2).
But whatever, I always find a bit of research fun indeed