Baroque Spring

[Nick Armstrong]

Any other lesser-known names members could post about?

Jean-Joseph Cassanéa de Mondonville, anyone?

This is one of my favourite baroque discs:



A complete mystery to me why they don't figure more on Breakfast - movements of 3 / 4 minutes... complete works around 10 minutes.

PS: I see it's now on Brilliant Classics for £5.50... http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/w/1...ymphonies-Op-3

[Jamiewhall]

I agree that the BBCS couldn't recreate the sound of 17th C Westminster Abbey. That's why they didn't try.
I hugely enjoyed the concert, but from the perspective of being in the room. And singing. I may even be the Mr Gostling fella you mention. :-)

[ardcarp]

I thought it was you Jamie. Nice one.

[Jamiewhall]

I thought it was you Jamie. Nice one.

Thanks!

[doversoul1]

I agree that the BBCS couldn't recreate the sound of 17th C Westminster Abbey. That's why they didn't try.

If that’s the case, why were they chosen to perform on this programme that claims to present Baroque music? There are so many excellent specialist ensembles who could have introduced the listeners to the distinct sound of the music of this era. Or is it the National Trust and their property that was the main point of the programme and the music was meant to blend nicely and discreetly into the surrounding?

[Jamiewhall]

If that’s the case, why were they chosen to perform on this programme that claims to present Baroque music? There are so many excellent specialist ensembles who could have introduced the listeners to the distinct sound of the music of this era. Or is it the National Trust and their property that was the main point of the programme and the music was meant to blend nicely and discreetly into the surrounding?

The programme did present Baroque music. Is musical performance only authentic or valid if performed on the instruments for which it was written? I've a very fine copy of the Goldberg Variations recorded on piano that I'll have to throw away immediately.

Perhaps you would have preferred the choir of Westminster Abbey? Then again the current Abbey choir employs four countertenor (falsetto) vicars choral so they too are inauthentic for this music.

Still at least you'd have boys. Then again the amount of time needed to get the many solos in all these verse anthems up to scratch would perhaps be prohibitive and costly.

Maybe the BBC simply thought that fielding 10 of its in-house professional singers, who all love what they do, to deliver a concert of music to the best of their ability would be enough to satisfy the majority of its audience? Who knows. I'm just delighted when I get the chance to perform this wonderful music. Perhaps you feel I'm unqualified to do so. That's fine. I was similarly unqualified back when I sang the stuff day in and day out at Winchester and I loved every minute.

[doversoul1]

The programme did present Baroque music. Is musical performance only authentic or valid if performed on the instruments for which it was written? I've a very fine copy of the Goldberg Variations recorded on piano that I'll have to throw away immediately.

Perhaps you would have preferred the choir of Westminster Abbey? Then again the current Abbey choir employs four countertenor (falsetto) vicars choral so they too are inauthentic for this music.

Still at least you'd have boys. Then again the amount of time needed to get the many solos in all these verse anthems up to scratch would perhaps be prohibitive and costly.

Maybe the BBC simply thought that fielding 10 of its in-house professional singers, who all love what they do, to deliver a concert of music to the best of their ability would be enough to satisfy the majority of its audience? Who knows. I'm just delighted when I get the chance to perform this wonderful music. Perhaps you feel I'm unqualified to do so. That's fine. I was similarly unqualified back when I sang the stuff day in and day out at Winchester and I loved every minute.

To begin with, what people listen to for their own pleasure has nothing to do with production of radio programmes.

Any music can be called Baroque music so long as it was composed in that particular period in history no matter how it is performed. However, the point I am making is not about authenticity. There was an interesting discussion on Early Music Show recently in which the gust pointed out that, for a number of reasons, authenticity in performing vocal music is a practical impossibility.

The point I am making is that there are many ensembles that dedicate their effort to recreating what they believe to be some of the essence of Baroque music performance. When the programme or in this case the ‘Season’ claims to be about Baroque music, listeners should be offered the music that is distinct as the result of the effort.

Maybe the BBC simply thought that fielding 10 of its in-house professional singers, who all love what they do, to deliver a concert of music to the best of their ability would be enough to satisfy the majority of its audience? Who knows. I'm just delighted when I get the chance to perform this wonderful music.

If this were the case, and quite honestly I am not surprised if it is, I’d say that it is bordering on contempt for the listeners. And you may be surprised to hear that, many listeners of Radio3, unlike parents at a school carol concert, are not here for the sake of performers’ pleasure. It is nice to know that the performers enjoyed the concert but that is irrelevant to say the least.

I shan’t come into the discussion of this particular topic again, as I don’t think I can remain polite much longer.

[Jamiewhall]

To begin with, what people listen to for their own pleasure has nothing to do with production of radio programmes.

Any music can be called Baroque music so long as it was composed in that particular period in history no matter how it is performed. However, the point I am making is not about authenticity. There was an interesting discussion on Early Music Show recently in which the gust pointed out that, for a number of reasons, authenticity in performing vocal music is a practical impossibility.

The point I am making is that there are many ensembles that dedicate their effort to recreating what they believe to be some of the essence of Baroque music performance. When the programme or in this case the ‘Season’ claims to be about Baroque music, listeners should be offered the music that is distinct as the result of the effort.

Maybe the BBC simply thought that fielding 10 of its in-house professional singers, who all love what they do, to deliver a concert of music to the best of their ability would be enough to satisfy the majority of its audience? Who knows. I'm just delighted when I get the chance to perform this wonderful music.

If this were the case, and quite honestly I am not surprised if it is, I’d say that it is bordering on contempt to the listeners. And you may be surprised to hear that, many listeners of Radio3, unlike parents at a school carol concert, are not here for the sake of performers’ pleasure. It is nice to know that the performers enjoyed the concert but that is irrelevant to say the least.

I shan’t come into the discussion of this particular topic again, as I don’t think I can remain polite much longer.

Since you have abandoned your only point that carried any weight -that of authenticity- I will address your remaining poor argument.

"...there are many ensembles that dedicate their effort to recreating what they believe to be some of the essence of Baroque music performance."

You may be surprised to hear that this is exactly what the BBC Singers does when presenting a baroque programme as with any other programme of music. So either you are scornful of ensembles who do not specialise - in which case you must be equally scornful of Polyphony, Tenebrae, the King's Singers, Voces 8 - or you a) somehow don't think BBCS conductors are qualified to judge what baroque music should sound like, or b) think the singers themselves deficient.

Firstly, you may be surprised to know how much crossover there is from ensemble to ensemble in London. I'm afraid you couldn't name a specialist baroque group who's past or present membership is not represented in the BBCS. Any argument you may have about lack of qualification, knowledge or experience falls flat on its face. Secondly, and actually this is what it boils down to, if you just don't like the product, that's fine. There is an ever-increasing and appreciative audience for what the group does and it is unlikely to lose sleep over some very narrow opinions.
You may have noticed I don't feel the need to defend the many talented conductors that work with the group. I think their reputations and achievements probably speak louder than any of my words.

I might have some sympathy if the choral content of Baroque Spring was provided exclusively by the BBC Singers - that would, of course, be wrong. That just isn't the case. In a season of almost wall to wall choral music you'll hear the group once more. That seems pretty balanced to me.

If you want to grind your axe, that's absolutely fine by me. And feel free to be as impolite as you like. After all, the messageboard would be dreadfully dull if everyone was reasonable and well balanced.

Best,
J

[ardcarp]

Jamie,

I think doversoul has wisely decided not to carry on the ping pong! I would just point out that most of us (on The Choir message-board anyway) know about the London situation with singers often moving freely between groups. We also know that many of the BBCS have arrived through the trad English Choral tradition. We know you are all excellent musicians, capable of tackling pretty much anything at short notice.

There are some of us (and I have to admit that includes me) who don't especially like the blend of the group in certain types of repertoire. I have long wished that the BBCS, instead of being staffed by a small group of regulars, might instead be a pool of professional singers of varying voice types from which individuals could be chosen for different types of work. I feel bad about saying this because it might not help your current employment situation! But don't worry....almost any ideas emanating from this Forum elicit an opposite reaction from the BBC.

Being perfectly frank, I would not choose to hear Stanford in G sung by the BBCS. I find that The Sixteen do Palestrina and Victoria well. Polyphony do the Whitacre, Lauridsen, Part stuff to perfection. And the other groups you mention (to which I could add Stile Antico and The Tallis Scholars) all press the right buttons for certain repertoire.

I don't know if you've looked at The Choir Forum before, but I think you will find all sorts of views about the BBCS cropping up from time to time. It would be good if you could find the time to join in the fray there. (Gabriel Jackson sometimes has to battle single-handed on your behalf!) Believe me, it's gloves off compared with the gentility of the Early Music section.

Best wishes.

[Flosshilde]

Is musical performance only authentic or valid if performed on the instruments for which it was written?

Hmm - so you'd be happy with a performance of Bruckner's 9th symphony on banjos?

[Jamiewhall]

Hmm - so you'd be happy with a performance of Bruckner's 9th symphony on banjos?

Well, when they broadcast Bruckner's Banjo Symphony, it's likely I'll choose not to listen given that I'll almost certainly hate it. If I'm somehow moved to give it a try, I'm unlikely to take to the Internet to complain, mostly because I know that for every raving looney that hates it there'll be a raving looney that loves it and a whole silent majority who, love or hate, quite like or not keen, will continue with their reasonable lives afterwards without the need to tell the people on the magic word screen what they thought about it.

Yes, Ardcarp, I'm vaguely aware of the general feeling towards the BBC Singers on The Choir forum. It continues to amuse me that certain people continue to put themselves through the ordeal of listening to a concert when the result is always the same. With a little planning, and a copy of the Radio Times, it's possible not to hear the group at all, you know.

I'm not going to join GJ in regularly defending the group for I am only able to offer my thoughts and feelings as an individual, not as a member, and they seem only to attract scorn and flippancy. Why should I bother? I think I've met my head/brick wall targets for a lifetime already.

Ta,
J

[ardcarp]

for every raving looney that hates it there'll be a raving looney that loves it

I don't think The Forum is peopled entirely by raving loonies. Good to see you here, by the way!

[Nick Armstrong]

With a little planning, and a copy of the Radio Times, it's possible not to hear the group at all, you know.

Yes, I'm afraid that is the strategy pursued in Château Caliban

[doversoul1]

Jamie
If it is not too late, please accept my apologies. There had been odd bits and pieces in ‘real life’ that had been bothering me and your posts came at the right/wrong time. It was mainly the phrase ‘enough to satisfy the majority of its listeners’. Early music fans (me at least) tend to feel marginalised within an already marginalised classical music listeners. I realise now that you did not mean anything other than the simple fact but it just pressed the right/wrong button. Besides, my gripe is about the general attitude of Radio3 rather than about BBCS.

[Jamiewhall]

Jamie
If it is not too late, please accept my apologies. There had been odd bits and pieces in ‘real life’ that had been bothering me and your posts came at the right/wrong time. It was mainly the phrase ‘enough to satisfy the majority of its listeners’. Early music fans (me at least) tend to feel marginalised within an already marginalised classical music listeners. I realise now that you did not mean anything other than the simple fact but it just pressed the right/wrong button. Besides, my gripe is about the general attitude of Radio3 rather than about BBCS.

Thanks, Doversoul, and best wishes,
J