Jordi Savall

[ShoveCoupler]

I'm afraid that I can't take more than 10 minutes of early music. And with a lot of it 30 seconds is about my limit. I'm afraid most of the composers are, to be honest, rather boring and repetitive. Whilst there are one or two early composers who (in my opinion) were greats, most I can't really be bothered with.

I play some JS Bach, and a lot of Haydn and Mozart. Occasionally some other composers if I like performing their music. But mostly I would rather play music from about 1750 up the the present day.

So why contribute to a thread about early music?

[Pegleg]

Well the union of our musical tastes is not an empty set after all, with JS Bach, Haydn and Mozart high on my play list too. But I admit to being a bit of a baroque nut, of course there is much which is just average. And just up Jordi's gamba street, Mr Able has just started playing some fine airs to lull me to sleep, he's post 1750 but his music was perhaps not...

[Ariosto]

So why contribute to a thread about early music?

I get the impression that you think that people who can't get into or find something in early music and HIPP that satisfies them should be kept out of all discussions?

That's a bit precious and narrow minded is it not?

The reason that I "contributed" was because Pegleg had made some links and recommendations and as I have an open mind I responded. I'm trying to find reasons for appreciating early music (and some of it I definitely do already appreciate).

As many people on here know I have been fairly (I don't think unfairly) critical of HIPP in the past. Whilst I acknowledge that the best of period performance can be pretty good, I find most a little unsatisfactory. But I suppose you may be against people persevering and trying to find reasons and openings into such areas of musical taste and preference? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but your attitude is likely to exclude and deter many people from attempting (even unsuccessfully) to find avenues of further discovery.

This applies as far as I'm concerned to contemporary music and music performance too, where I hope to have an open mind and eventually find reasons to like some of music I find unsatisfactory at the moment. As a musician one should not have closed ears or a closed mind, but you may think differently about this issue.

P.S. My comment about listening for a maximum of 10 minutes was a little tomgue in cheek but as you don't know me it is understandable that you may have taken that at face value, so I'm not entirely blaming you.

In fact I've taken part in early music that has taken a lot longer than 10 minutes (Coronation of Popea for a start) although I have to admit that we were doing it on modern instruments. I may also shortly be trying a friends baroque fiddle, which will an interesting experience. (Maybe not for him though ...)

P.P.S. I expect I will get a detention from ff now as I've since noticed that you are a new boy (or gal?) and I have been known to tear newbies off a strip in the past, so don't take my rambling criticism too seriously, I'm sure we could be the best of friends in the near future!!

PPS I've seen your profile now and have registered that you are a composer/musician. Please enlighten us more, as that sounds interesting.

[ShoveCoupler]

Sorry, Ariosto, my comment looks far cattier than intended, I was only teasing.

I am intrigued, though, at what happened to music around 1750 that changes its perception so completely in the minds of modern audiences. The reverence of the composer as tortured genius, the score as tablets of stone, the disdain for improvisation, the absurd formalities of the concert hall with everybody calling each other Maestro, and that's before we get to the curtain-chewing histrionics of the music itself. All of this is refreshingly absent from much early music practice, but seems an integral part of the classical music experience for many.

[Ariosto]

Sorry, Ariosto, my comment looks far cattier than intended, I was only teasing.

I am intrigued, though, at what happened to music around 1750 that changes its perception so completely in the minds of modern audiences. The reverence of the composer as tortured genius, the score as tablets of stone, the disdain for improvisation, the absurd formalities of the concert hall with everybody calling each other Maestro, and that's before we get to the curtain-chewing histrionics of the music itself. All of this is refreshingly absent from much early music practice, but seems an integral part of the classical music experience for many.

No problem, maybe I was too defensive.

I mentioned 1750 but I think the date is far wider. The music is in some cases perfectly fine. I'm not sure I agree about modern audiences. OK, some of them are dumb, and I've never called anyome maestro in my life, and if it's a conductor who likes to be thought of like that, then more likely a four letter word would be more appropriate.

I have nothing but admiration for improvisation and improvisors, who are a rare breed these days, and no score has ever been a tablet of stone for me, but I agree with you that there are some out there that do think like that. It's really their problem. The score is merely an indication, the rest is down to an interpretation, and an interpretor.

A score should be something that you have been performing for decades but which is one where it is no nearer to realisation, and never will be. Better to be dead than to arrive at a final understanding!

[doversoul1]

Originally Posted by Ariosto
I get the impression that you think that people who can't get into or find something in early music and HIPP that satisfies them should be kept out of all discussions?

That's a bit precious and narrow minded is it not?

That’s rather like going into a Thai restaurant and saying that you don’t like the food as it doesn’t taste like steak and chips. You can make any comments you like about early music on, say, the Performance Board or the Talking About Music Board but this board has been created specifically for those who enjoy early music. I do appreciate and enjoy reading your comments on many aspects of performance but if you can’t take more than ten munities of early music, there really is no point in saying that on this board. You might find it fun but, well, it isn’t.

There are plenty of other places on this Forum where you can discuss or criticise early music per se.

[Ariosto]

That’s rather like going into a Thai restaurant and saying that you don’t like the food as it doesn’t taste like steak and chips. You can make any comments you like about early music on, say, the Performance Board or the Talking About Music Board but this board has been created specifically for those who enjoy early music. I do appreciate and enjoy reading your comments on many aspects of performance but if you can’t take more than ten munities of early music, there really is no point in saying that on this board. You might find it fun but, well, it isn’t.

There are plenty of other places on this Forum where you can discuss or criticise early music per se.

Actually, I hadn't realised I was on an early music board. I had heard some early music on R3 earlier and the subject caught my eye. As I just look at ad hoc items under "what's new" I am unaware usually as to what board I am on. Maybe this is a problem, and all music should be on one board. On the other hand, maybe you think I am careless and a bit stupid in the way I use forums. You could well be right.

It also makes me wonder, are people discouraged from posting about a subject on a specialist section? None of the others were apparently worried about my comments, and even when we got into a detailed discussion it still remained very friendly. In fact, as I said, I was quite grateful to Pegleg for pointing me to some early music, even if some of it was not to my taste, although some was.

You may question my motives, but I was not, at least on this occasion trying, to get some fun out of it. If I want to do that, Mr Pee obliges me with plenty of opportunities, as does Simon.

One of the reasons I post about early music is to try and find out why a certain percentage of it is an area in which I find appreciation hard. It's not so much the music, but often the performances. But as I seem by you to be blasphemous when I discuss early music, then I had better be careful about my opinions.

Sorry to have disturbed and desecrated your alter of early music. I will try and be more careful.

[doversoul1]

Ariosto
The fact that you did not realise that you were on the Early Music board changes things a lot and I wouldn’t go as far as to say that you should be more careful.

I suppose you could say that people are discouraged to post certain comments on a ‘specialist section’, actually, two specialist sections: the Early Music board and the Here and Now board. If I remember correctly, H&N was created so that those who enjoy New Music could discuss the subject without someone posting a comment like ‘that’s not music’.

Let’s leave it to that. I am glad to hear that you enjoyed (well, at least listened to) Zelenka even for ten minutes.

One of the reasons I post about early music is to try and find out why a certain percentage of it is an area in which I find appreciation hard. It's not so much the music, but often the performances

You could start a new thread. I think it will create an interesting discussion.

[Ariosto]

Ariosto
The fact that you did not realise that you were on the Early Music board changes things a lot and I wouldn’t go as far as to say that you should be more careful.

I suppose you could say that people are discouraged to post certain comments on a ‘specialist section’, actually, two specialist sections: the Early Music board and the Here and Now board. If I remember correctly, H&N was created so that those who enjoy New Music could discuss the subject without someone posting a comment like ‘that’s not music’.

Let’s leave it to that. I am glad to hear that you enjoyed (well, at least listened to) Zelenka even for ten minutes.


You could start a new thread. I think it will create an interesting discussion.

Thanks doversoul, I am now appreciating what you are saying, we should avoid too many negative comments. If mine were seen as provocative or negative I'm sorry because they were not meant to be. I did like some of the Zelenka - in fact most of what I heard. I'm one day going to try a baroque fiddle, but not sure when.

Start a new thread? I don't know that I would dare!!

[JimD]

'Music is what makes us human.'

I haven't noticed any comment on this. A touch excessive...was it just a rhetorical trope or seriously meant do you think?

[ShoveCoupler]

I haven't noticed any comment on this. A touch excessive...was it just a rhetorical trope or seriously meant do you think?

I wish artists would ease up on this sort of guff. You could say the same about jam-making or golf.

[PJPJ]

Jam-making is what makes us human.

Yes, you're right, it has a certain ring to it. I'm not convinced it works nearly as well with golf.

That aside, what a wonderful concert that was - I've listened half a dozen times already, it's recorded and a keeper. Savall is one of the most entertaining of musicians and I envy one and all who were able to get to St John's SS. The odd comment seemingly an unintentional parody of Eric Cantona I will readily excuse.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Jam-making is what makes us human.

Different sort of Conserve-atoire.

[ShoveCoupler]

this thread could be about to come to a sticky end.

[Ariosto]

How about an early music jam session?? (Sorry!!)