Gustav Leonhardt on Bach, French music...

[old khayyam]

No, i've not heard of Diaz or Presti, perhaps to my shame. They do seem a little obscure. I was wondering if there were any other major guitar recitalists in the same league as Segovia, Yepes, Bream, and Williams. And, in keeping with the thread, let the measure be the quality and quantity of their interpretations of Bach.

[Richard Tarleton]

No, i've not heard of Diaz or Presti, perhaps to my shame. They do seem a little obscure. I was wondering if there were any other major guitar recitalists in the same league as Segovia, Yepes, Bream, and Williams. And, in keeping with the thread, let the measure be the quality and quantity of their interpretations of Bach.

I think the short answer is no!

I still recommend you track down Bream's EMI CD, recorded in 1994, which consists of the Chaconne, the E Minor Suite BWV 996, the E Major Partita BWV 1006A, and the lovely Prelude, Fugue and Allegro BWV 998. Superlative playing, on the guitar Segovia always wanted to play but couldn't, the Augustin Hauser. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

I still have Bream's 1957 Westminster LP which includes the Chaconne and BWV 998, and his Bach Lute Suites LP of 1960. As you will by now have gathered, for me Bream is the last word for Bach on the guitar!

These days I also like listening to Bach on the baroque lute, played by Nigel North or Jacob Lindberg, superlative players both, and both started out as classical guitarists.

[old khayyam]

How splendid that your favourite is my blind-spot! I would love to hear your appraisal of JB's playing. I have a number of his LPs, one of which is entirely 'lutenous'.

And thank you for making me aware of his Bach Lute Suites 1960, i look forward to finding a copy.

Furthermore, i also have an LP of Nigel North on lute, but playing early English dance tunes.

[Richard Tarleton]

How splendid that your favourite is my blind-spot! I would love to hear your appraisal of JB's playing.

I think a proper answer to this would require an evening in front of the fire with a pile of records and CDs for comparison, and in honour of JB a bottle of good claret (or two). My thoughts on his playing are based on live concerts, his recorded output, his masterclasses and his offerings on TV and DVD. Right and left hand technique, touch, tone, expressiveness, phrasing, sense of architecture, communication - for me JB has it all.

It's hard to make a straight comparison with Segovia because as I said before Segovia (where Bach was concerned) tended just to play "pieces". I have some Segovia arrangements in Schott edns which I attempt to play myself and of course they lie beautifully under the fingers (where I can get mine round them). Looking through Segovia's concert programmes (in Graham Wade's useful biography) I can't find a single example of Segovia playing a Bach suite. He probably played the Gavotte from BWV 1006/1006A a million times but I've never heard him play the rest of it. John Williams made a splendid record of the whole suite on CBS back in the 1960's, and I heard him play it live in the Festival Hall. Julian Bream played an entire Bach lute suite at his first Wigmore in 1951, the first person to do so on the guitar.

To take the Chaconne - a piece where direct comparisons are possible (I'm not aware of a guitar version of the rest of the partita) Bream's 1959 record is satisfying, but his 1994 EMI recording quite simply achieves as great a profundity as I've heard in any interpretation.

And off-thread, but thinking about wine, I've got two precious edns of the Rubaiyat - a Hodder and Stoughton edn with illustrations by Edward Dulac, bought in Hartley's Booksellers in Madras, circa 1910, and one pub. by Colston's Ltd of Edinburgh in 1910 and illustrated by Sir Frank Brangwyn.

[vinteuil]

... during the War, my father (who had become emotionally if not practically involved with events in Spain) became obsessed with the guitar... altho' his professional career lay elsewhere as a graphic designer and lecturer, the guitar remained his violon d' Ingres, and he studied under the great Hector Quine [such a good name!] - until he found he was getting less interested in the Spanish repertoire and more and more interested in the renaissance and baroque - until he found that the guitar was really not satisfactory for this at all, and he moved to the lute. So when I was growing up I was aware of real tension when it came to the question of playing Bach etc on the guitar...

My own 'early music' involvement flowed naturally from all this...

[Richard Tarleton]

... during the War, my father (who had become emotionally if not practically involved with events in Spain) became obsessed with the guitar... altho' his professional career lay elsewhere as a graphic designer and lecturer, the guitar remained his violon d' Ingres, and he studied under the great Hector Quine [such a good name!] - until he found he was getting less interested in the Spanish repertoire and more and more interested in the renaissance and baroque - until he found that the guitar was really not satisfactory for this at all, and he moved to the lute. So when I was growing up I was aware of real tension when it came to the question of playing Bach etc on the guitar...

My own 'early music' involvement flowed naturally from all this...

This in a humbler fashion has been my journey. I'm less and less interested in the hispanic repertoire - only after taking up the guitar for a second time after a long lay-off in early adulthood I found changing to the lute too much of a stretch technically. I tried and failed.

Bream himself occupied a pioneering or transitional role, I suppose, in popularising renaissance repertoire - he played a lute which was the equivalent of Landowska's harpsichord, at least at first, and used his nails - he could switch from lute to guitar and back again in the same concert. In later years he played replica vihuelas and renaissance guitars but in a very guitaristic fashion. A whole generation of lutenists who may have started on the classical guitar have since completed the journey, likewise vihuelists and others - North, Lindberg, Ferries, Carter, Barto, Smith to name but a tiny handful. Bream was the first to graciously acknowledge the likes of Nigel North.

Nowadays I thoroughly enjoy playing 16th-18th century music on the guitar for my own and others' amusement, and picking my way through the repertoire, but my listening is entirely to the genuine or HIP article. In any case, there aren't any more guitarists really worth listening to. I found the hype surrounding young Milos profoundly depressing.

[old khayyam]

I think a proper answer to this would require an evening in front of the fire with a pile of records and CDs

The fire's lit and i'm all ears, old boy. Encumbered as we are with the inadequate medium of the written word, i'm perfectly willing to hunker down over as descriptive a thread as may be possible.

Right and left hand technique, touch, tone, expressiveness, phrasing, sense of architecture, communication...

"Sense of architecture" - such a beautiful phrase when applied to the guitar (Guitarchitecture?).

Julian Bream played an entire Bach lute suite at his first Wigmore in 1951, the first person to do so on the guitar

I wasnt aware he was responsible for such a landmark in the history of music. Good to know.

Bream's...1994 EMI recording quite simply achieves as great a profundity as I've heard in any interpretation

Sold. On your recommendation i will do my best to locate a copy (against my prejudice of any recordings made after 1980!).

And off-thread, but thinking about wine, I've got two precious edns of the Rubaiyat - a Hodder and Stoughton edn with illustrations by Edward Dulac, bought in Hartley's Booksellers in Madras, circa 1910, and one pub. by Colston's Ltd of Edinburgh in 1910 and illustrated by Sir Frank Brangwyn.

I will check my copy

[old khayyam]

Re #21:

the likes of Nigel North

i wasnt aware he was in any way famous, let alone had an ilk. This is interesting news.

I'd not heard of Milos until you mentioned him, and certainly no hype. Having looked him up, i see nothing more than the latest young mediterrenean buck to eek out what will undoubtedly be a short-lived career in what will ultimately be 'beach music', and more dependent on femme-appeal than musical virtuousity or ingenuity.

For the record, i also play 'spanish' guitar, although my own approach is a tad more bohemian. I have also recently embraced the Oud.

[Richard Tarleton]

I wasnt aware he was responsible for such a landmark in the history of music. Good to know.

I should have added "on the guitar" - I'm sure they were played on their entirety on the lute in the 18th C I think I'm right in saying Bach's lute suites were written in stave, whereas those of his contemporary Weiss were written in tablature - Weiss's entire output was for the lute, and seemed to suffer a sort of Darwinian extinction along with the lute in the mid 18th C. Again, Bream and others did much to keep his name alive, and now we have loads of his suites restored to all their glory on the lute on Naxos, thanks to Robert Barto. Vols 5 and 10 of his Naxos series include a couple of guitar warhorses (with apologies to another thread) and are well worth a punt.

Good luck with the Bream CD - I'll await your verdict nervously. No. EMI Classics 5 55123 2

I'm sure "famous" is a relative term applied to lute players, but several now enjoy busy international and recording careers, and North is in the top 3 or 4. Julian Bream's verdict on him, in a lecture to the Lute Society:

I remember going to a remarkable recital, one which I wish I had the ability to give: it was one of Nigel North's Bach recitals, and I was bowled over by how masterful and how musical it was. A real musical experience, something you don't always get from guitar and lute players and which, in general, is pretty rare.

Bream recounted how, when Britten was writing a piece for him, he had to persuade him to write one for the guitar rather than the lute, as "there were only one and a half lutenists in the country" at the time and no-one would play it. The result was of course the Nocturnal. Very different now.

Always good to meet a fellow plucker on the MB - there are a few of us I think

[old khayyam]

You did add "on the guitar"(), and have thus established in my mind the importance of JB in the history of music.


Re Weiss: I've recently aquired some of his pieces played by Yepes. Quite pleasant enough, but I've yet to a develop an enthusiasm outside of JSB. The task i am currently undertaking is comparing JW's recording of JSB's entire Lute Suites, with that of NY.


Given there are only 4 top guitarists and precious few lutenists, i think we're lucky to have as many as 2 guitaristas on this forum, so cheers to that


However, Bach is the topic, and i'm happy to continue comparing recitalists (and not necessarily on guitar), although, as said, i'm convinced it doesnt get better than Segovia

[John Skelton]

Silvius Weiss is a fine composer, IMO. (JS Bach knew Weiss via Wilhelm Friedemann, and admired him. http://www.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1&lang=eng&type=life). His music incorporates elements of the gallant without ever sounding as if it is caught between two 'styles', one archaic the other 'fashionable'. Try the great lutenist Hopkinson Smith's recital http://www.amazon.co.uk/Weiss-Partit...2817607&sr=1-1

And Nigel North's recent recital http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//BGS119.htm

Hopkinson Smith http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXlXrB0SaXE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_VK6Q16-Dg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap1iHNvkbO4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmltEahKFrk

[vinteuil]

Weiss is indeed marvellous - and addictive.

The Nigel North and Hopkinson Smith are lovely - but don't miss out on the continuing survey on naxos with Robert Barto - I think he's reached volume ten of what I hope is going to be a 'complete' Weiss. Naxos may be a 'cheapo' label, but there is nothing cheap about Barto - he is one of the great lutenists for this repertoire

[Richard Tarleton]

Weiss is indeed marvellous - and addictive.

The Nigel North and Hopkinson Smith are lovely - but don't miss out on the continuing survey on naxos with Robert Barto - I think he's reached volume ten of what I hope is going to be a 'complete' Weiss. Naxos may be a 'cheapo' label, but there is nothing cheap about Barto - he is one of the great lutenists for this repertoire

Yes - I'm a huge Weiss fan, and the Barto series on Naxos is magnificent. Like many/most guitarists I came to Weiss first through guitar transcriptions of the Tombeaus of M. Comte de Logy and M Baron Hartig - but nothing can compare to hearing them on a baroque lute with diapasons - there's a photo of Mr Barto with his instrument in the sleeve notes of Vol. 10. I note he studied at Basle (as did H Smith) with Eugen Dombois - who was the first lutenist I saw in action, back in the 1960s in the Holywell Music Room in Oxford, playing the Bach 4th lute suite. The main attraction that evening was Lina Lalandi playing Bach on a clavichord. She was dressed like a Greek goddess in a very tight white dress - I managed to get a seat just a few feet away

[vinteuil]

Yes - I'm a huge Weiss fan, and the Barto series on Naxos is magnificent. :

Another fine Weiss CD is that with José Miguel Moreno on the glossa label - beautiful, sensitive playing.

On the other hand - I cannot recommend at all what is to my ears a quite awful collection of Weiss in a box played by Kurt Schneeweiss in his own guitar transcriptions. He doesn't to me understand Weiss at all - a self indulgent travesty which - rare for me - made me almost angry at a performance...

[Richard Tarleton]

Thankfully I have not come across that. BTW I daresay that should have been Tombeaux above

Worth a listen is Lindberg's Weiss disc played on his 1590 Sixtus Rauwolf lute, strung with 11 courses for this recording - the sort of lute Weiss would have played on until he was about 30, apparently. I've heard Lindberg play Renaissance music a couple of times on this instrument, again in the Holywell Music Room.