Gustav Leonhardt on Bach, French music...

[Guest]

Disconcerting to hear GL's vehement denunciation of those who play Bach on the piano. "They shouldn't do it" or words to that effect. CB's question came just after a cantata performance with all-male line-up and sounded as if it was a question about period performance more generally. I just have time to put my John Duarte transcriptions of the cello suites for guitar into the recycling not to mention my CDs of Brendel, Schiff, Hewitt....

Also interesting remarks about French music.

[Al R Gando]

Disconcerting to hear GL's vehement denunciation of those who play Bach on the piano. "They shouldn't do it" or words to that effect. .

Nothing dis-concerting for me in that :) Probably you can play Bach's keyboard music on the accordion, on the marimba, or on the Moog synthesiser (as W Carlos often did). But it's not what Bach intended!

[Serial_Apologist]

There was a big argument on this very subject 3 years ago, on the old board, when I first joined. For my own part I think Bach would have composed with the instrumental sounds around him in his time; in part because practicality was I think at the forefront of his mind. Others feel the very style of Bach's music suggests that he had instrumental sounds in his head for which appropriate instruments had not then been invented; e.g. a kind of 18th century Varese.

S-A

[Al R Gando]

Just to expand on what I said above... I think if you play any kind of musical instrument, then you have a perfect right to play Bach on it! Even if you are a weak pianist, you can stumble through the solo violin partitas (using both hands if need be)... you'll derive endless pleasure from doing so, and you will gain unparalleled insight into Bach's work as a result. If you are good enough to play the French Suites, or the Forty-Eight... then fine, why not? It's magnificent and engrossing music. (You may want to find out more - much more - about the style and manner of ornament and embellishment in Bach's era. CPE Bach's book is a good place to start). If you can play the recorder, some of the flute music fits mostly - a transposition will help.

But there is quite a big difference between singing in the bath, and singing at the Met :)

[ardcarp]

I caught most (but not all of) the Bott/Leonhardt programme on my car radio. I thoght Botty was slightly in breathless awe at the feet of the master, but nonetheless it was a good programme. I missed the disparaging comment about pianists. Whilst I'm a Leonhardt and a harpsichord fan, I must say that I would prefer any day Hewitt's Goldberg on the piano to Leonhardt's on the harpsichord. The Goldbergs in particular with their incredibly inventive and imaginative ideas, lend themselves to an expressive keyboard. The clavichord was the nearest thing for JSB. Suely he would have adored the possibilities of the modern piano?

[old khayyam]

JSB never wrote for guitar did he? Yet i live for Segovia's interpretations..

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Surely he would have adored the possibilities of the modern piano?

I believe so: and he would've written some wonderful Music for it, exploiting the three pedals and the 8+ octave range. Just as he wrote wonderful Music exploiting the unique expressive powers of the instruments he actually knew.

Al R Gando sums up my own feelings exactly : I don't think it's right to "forbid" instrumentalists adopting this Music for their own and others' pleasure. But I prefer to hear what Bach wrote as he wrote it on the instruments for which he wrote it. Especially played by GL: superb on the Harpsichord, occasionally a bit of a twit on the vocal chords.

Best Wishes.

[Richard Tarleton]

JSB never wrote for guitar did he? Yet i live for Segovia's interpretations..

ok, if you don't already know it try this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Guitar-.../dp/B000002RU9 - one of Julian Bream's final recordings for EMI - also available in download form by the look of it. Supreme playing on a fabulous instrument - the "Augustin" Hauser that Segovia always wanted to get his hands on but Albert Augustin wouldn't let him. The trouble with Segovia IMV was that he tended to cherry-pick movements and treat them as lollipops, whereas Bream has always respected Bach's structural intentions by playing suites etc. in their entirety. Also some of Segovia's mannerisms sound pretty dated today. I only saw the great man once, in 1971 or 2.

[old khayyam]

some of Segovia's mannerisms sound pretty dated today

Oh? How so?

By way of context, I find John Williams' technique, whilst virtuously competent, to be rather pallid compared to Segovia's post-flamenco dynamic. Segovia was an innovator in recital technique. JB, i find, occupies a middle ground. By my measure, no one will ever be as good as AS, but many fly higher than JW.

[Richard Tarleton]

This is a huge subject (for guitarists at least ). I mean Segovia's tendency to rubato (for example) which sounds very dated today, and his very romantic approach - I'm not sure that he would have been pleased by your reference to "post-flamenco", his avowed aim was to rescue the classical guitar from the flamenco players. Flamenco is by its nature very percussive, and Segovia was about exploring the tonal and expressive possibilities of the guitar.

The other problem with Segovia's Bach, as I said, was his tendency to cherry-pick movements. He may have played more than one Bach piece in a recital, but seldom if ever related ones. A glance through Segovia's concert programmes across his entire career confirms this. In the early days he mixed up early, baroque, classical and Spanish repertoire and frankly it didn't make a huge amount of difference because they all tended to sound stylistically similar. A gavotte here, a bourée there, his recital programmes were a bit of a desayuno del perro. Bream was the first to play Bach suites on the guitar.

This is not in anyway to denigrate Segovia's achievement in placing the guitar on the world stage, although he was the first to emphasise his own achievement at the expense of others in the field - for example in the transcription of early repertoire, where the achievements of Pujol and Scheidt were more important, not that you'd guess it listening to Segovia. He was not a generous man in this respect. Segovia enjoys a unique place in his instrument's history, rather like Casals or Landowska.

I'm afraid I simply don't recognise your characterisations of Williams' and Bream's playing, old khayyam. My knowledge of Segovia's playing, apart from one live solo recital late in his career, is limited to records, films etc. but I went to many, many concerts of both Bream and Williams (including them playing together) besides knowing their discography intimately.

[old khayyam]

I'm not sure if you mean rubato per se, or Segovia's rubato in particular. But either way, i see it as one of the innovations that made him what he is.

Yes, he was about exploring the tonal and expressive possibilities of the guitar, but i fail to see how this can be achieved without adjusting the percussive approach of the plucking hand. All plucking is percussive.

I refer to him as "post-flamenco" because, as i once read it, he learned flamenco in his early years, and this also contributed to his originality of style. Therefore he is, in a way, one of the 'flamenco-classical' players he apparently despised.

I didnt really offer any characterisation of JB's playing, though i do find JW to be a little limp-wristed and inexpressive for my tastes, i'm sorry.

[Richard Tarleton]

I meant Segovia's rubato! I find myself listening with different ears today compared to 40 years ago, if only because of the changes in playing styles that have happened in the interim.

Still - referring to the other thread about analogue/digital - one joy of having Sky Arts has been being able to watch again the 1970s programme about Segovia. My abiding image of him is seated in the Court of Myrtles in the Alhambra, playing Albeniz' Torre Bermeja. Happily available on You Tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwIgs8WiINs

[old khayyam]

Ah yes, i have spent many hours (/days!) watching Segovia on youtube. Bringing it back on topic, i would go as far as to say AS is the single most original interpreter of JSB i've ever heard. Far too many recitalists tend to just play Bach. Fugues, in particular, tend to be attacked with machine-like repetition. It takes a genius to see through the notes and bring out the 'story' within.

[old khayyam]

I forgot Narciso Yepes, whose work i am still appraising, although i am sure he is several cuts above JW.

Are there any other guitarists i may have forgotten or not heard of?

[Richard Tarleton]

I forgot Narciso Yepes, whose work i am still appraising, although i am sure he is several cuts above JW.

Are there any other guitarists i may have forgotten or not heard of?

Buenos días ok.

I only know Narciso Yepes from records - he played on a 10-string Ramirez guitar....The Venezuelan Alirio Diaz was another highly regarded guitarist I saw only once. Terrific in Hispanic repertoire but he didn't leave much of an impression on me - great facility but that was about it.

Do you know Ida Presti? Born 1924 (3 years older than Yepes) she might have outshone everyone as a soloist had she not dedicated her career to duets with her husband Aleexander Lagoya, than died tragically young in 1967. Worth seeking out any recordings you can find - there are very few, but fabulous - also a few grainy videos on you Tube. Staggering technique, especially in the right hand, and a well-nigh perfect duet - they really played as one.