Vaughan Williams and Early Music

[ardcarp]

Hannah French explores Ralph Vaughan Williams's love for Bach and early English composers, including highlights from his unique recording of Bach's St Matthew Passion, his remarkable reworks of Thomas Tallis and Orlando Gibbons, and his favourite piece by Purcell.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001cnsx

This programme really is a 'must', especially for those who want to hear RVW's own voice and his views on performing the Bach Passions.

Those of us who now sing Bach regularly should not sniff at his then fashionable way of doing things, eg at the Leith Hill Festival each year. The only Bach major work work I sang as a treble was The Christmas Oratorio, parts I - III, in English, with organ only accompaniment. And much of it, as I remember, wasn't that slow. However as a teenage tenor I sang in the Matthew and the John Passion, with orchestra, on alternate years (2 performances each year) and yes the tempi were slow, very similar to what we heard on EMS today*. I think we forget that the religious aspect of hearing a Passion done in church was then very much more important than it probably is now; i.e. there were more true believers around! And brisk tempi were not considered suitable for the solemnity of Passiontide.

We are talking of the 1960s, and singing it in English was then the norm, the idea being that the 'true believers' could understand the story.

The other fascinating part of the programme was discussion of RVW's own performing score of the St Matthew, and the tweaks he made to it. Time it was used again, which would result in a fascinating, if long, historical (but not HIPP!!) performance. Also fascinating to hear of RVW's many revisions of his own Tallis Fantasia. Again, informative for someone to resurrect the original.

*I remember the Passions being very long, and we used to have two interval breaks in the Matthew. I remember clearly one year which was very wintry, and the choir used the intervals to troop across the vicarage lawn, covered in deep snow, to use the only available loo. (I think the congregation used the village hall, which was further away.)

OMG that annoying bump up of future programmes happened again. It seems to be getting longer, more rambling and definitely more intrusive. Please stop it EMS producers....and read my email, please.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I thought it was an excellent survey

[Cockney Sparrow]

Hannah French explores Ralph Vaughan Williams's love for Bach and early English composers, including highlights from his unique recording of Bach's St Matthew Passion, his remarkable reworks of Thomas Tallis and Orlando Gibbons, and his favourite piece by Purcell. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001cnsx

This programme really is a 'must', especially for those who want to hear RVW's own voice and his views on performing the Bach Passions.

Thanks for the alert.

[I] However as a teenage tenor I sang in the Matthew and the John Passion, with orchestra, on alternate years (2 performances each year) and yes the tempi were slow, very similar to what we heard on EMS today*. I think we forget that the religious aspect of hearing a Passion done in church was then very much more important than it probably is now; i.e. there were more true believers around! And brisk tempi were not considered suitable for the solemnity of Passiontide.

We are talking of the 1960s, and singing it in English was then the norm, the idea being that the 'true believers' could understand the story.

As a young man, on the turn of the 1970's/80s I was fortunate to be a guest singer in the St Matthew at a Cathedral performance on Good Friday for 4, maybe 5 years running. I can't say I had a great faith at the time (and, as the years progressed, more and more doubts....) but regardless those performances, in English, made a deep impression which has never left me. Its certainly a drama, not only a performance.

Unfortunately, every choir I have sung with since haven't performed it, usually preferring the St John, and latterly of course in German. I support diversity in performance - and that includes performance in English, with larger numbers of singers.

[smittims]

One of the most controversial things is his composed 'pianoforte' continuo part. He didn't like the harpsichord, and player-realisation was primitive then anyway, so I think it needs to be seen as a personal view of how best to reveal the music to an audience then.

Singing in English was done for communication. German was much less understoood in Britain then. Lieder were often sung, and recorded , in English. I rememebr going to the Xmas Oratorio in Birmingham c.1972 and being surprised by the chorus' first words: 'Christians be joyful! ' . I was fortunate in having a chance to mention this tothe conductor, Richard Butt, later, and he said he felt the Passions and the Oratorio should be performed in the vernacular. And of course the Bach Choir did the S.Matthew at the RFH in English into the 1980s and drew a huge audience, though of course it sounded creaky towards the end (even to me). .

[ardcarp]

German was much less understoood in Britain then

Not sure that it is now. My limited knowledge is based almost entirely on the singing I've done. 'Christ lag in Todesbanden' doesn't get you very far at the supermarket! I suppose die Forelle would be OK at the fishmonger........

[Master Jacques]

One of the most controversial things is his composed 'pianoforte' continuo part. He didn't like the harpsichord, and player-realisation was primitive then anyway, so I think it needs to be seen as a personal view of how best to reveal the music to an audience then.

Singing in English was done for communication. German was much less understoood in Britain then. Lieder were often sung, and recorded , in English. I rememebr going to the Xmas Oratorio in Birmingham c.1972 and being surprised by the chorus' first words: 'Christians be joyful! ' . I was fortunate in having a chance to mention this tothe conductor, Richard Butt, later, and he said he felt the Passions and the Oratorio should be performed in the vernacular. And of course the Bach Choir did the S.Matthew at the RFH in English into the 1980s and drew a huge audience, though of course it sounded creaky towards the end (even to me). .

Whilst I agree with some of the above, I strongly question the idea that "German was much less understood in Britain then". Quite the contrary, educated 19th c. and early 20th c. writers and composers (e.g. George Eliot, Sullivan) were much more familiar with the language - and its great poets, dramatists and philosophers, read in the original - than has been the case recently, when German has been dropped by most schools and many universities as something not worth studying. More fool us.

The decline in German-speaking is quite distinct, though, from RVW's reasons for singing Bach in English. He was firm throughout his life that only "snobs" and "prigs" (two of his favourite words throughout his essays) wanted to hear opera and oratorio in anything other than English. He rightly saw that England and America were out of line with Europe in wanting to hear them in something other than the vernacular. Nowadays, despite his efforts, snobbish priggery rules the roost, even where the language - as in the Bach Passions - is so antiquated as to be difficult for even modern Germans to follow easily (as Ardcarp amusingly hints!), let alone English audiences who do not understand a word of it.

RVW had the additional motive, of course, of wanting to free English music - and word setting - from the Teutonic yoke; and "snobs" swooning to German-language songs ("Shoobear's leedah", in Beecham's wickedly mocking phrase) weren't part of the healthy future, as he saw it. If things have gone the other way, there it is!

[smittims]

I agree with you about educated people, Tippett for instance clearly understood German, but the general mass didn't even speak French in the thirties, or Rattigan's famous play wouldn't have been credible.,

[ardcarp]

I got a long reply from Les Pratt about the 'advert' which sticks out like sore thumb in the middle of EMS:

Dear A.

Many thanks for your email. I'm sorry to hear that the Early Music News bulletins haven't gone down well with you and your friends on the For3 Forum.

These bulletins were put in place this summer as a reaction to feedback from many EMS listeners, and indeed from early music practitioners who wanted the programme to have a greater element of topicality - a way to find out more about what's happening in the early music world right now, if you will. So, the 3-minute bulletins will be a weekly feature of the programme from now on (save for editions which are repeated), and will be presented by Mark Seow - a freelance Baroque violinist and Bach specialist, whom we hope will soon become a trusted member of the Radio 3 and the EMS family. We usually end the bulletins with a look ahead to what early music treasures can be found on Radio 3 in the week ahead, but the main focus is not "bumping up future Radio 3 programmes", as you put it - it's a chance to alert listeners to new recordings, forthcoming festivals and concerts, new research and other early music related stories that otherwise wouldn't find their way onto the airwaves.

With regard to your comment on the placing of the bulletin, it was decided by the Radio 3 commissioners that this shouldn't feel like a "tag-on" at the end of the programme, but rather an integral part of the Early Music Show itself, featuring interview clips from performers, festival directors, academics and so on. Sometimes, depending on the layout and content of the programme itself, it may be more appropriate to end on the news bulletin - for instance, if there's a concert with just one, or two lengthy pieces in it - but as a rule of thumb, we've been asked to tuck them into the main body of the programme whenever possible.

You may be surprised to hear that the majority of feedback from listeners so far has been overwhelmingly positive, and I hope, as the bulletins settle into the Early Music Show framework, you will get used to them and see their worth. Perhaps you and your fellow For3 Forum users might even suggest some items we can include in future bulletins? Suggestions for early music content are always gratefully received.

All best wishes

Les


I wonder who these numerous EMS listeners are who want these intrusive adverts? I guess the only ray of hope is: "Sometimes, depending on the layout and content of the programme itself, it may be more appropriate to end on the news bulletin..."

[oddoneout]

I got a long reply from Les Pratt about the 'advert' which sticks out like sore thumb in the middle of EMS:

Dear A.

Many thanks for your email. I'm sorry to hear that the Early Music News bulletins haven't gone down well with you and your friends on the For3 Forum.

These bulletins were put in place this summer as a reaction to feedback from many EMS listeners, and indeed from early music practitioners who wanted the programme to have a greater element of topicality - a way to find out more about what's happening in the early music world right now, if you will. So, the 3-minute bulletins will be a weekly feature of the programme from now on (save for editions which are repeated), and will be presented by Mark Seow - a freelance Baroque violinist and Bach specialist, whom we hope will soon become a trusted member of the Radio 3 and the EMS family. We usually end the bulletins with a look ahead to what early music treasures can be found on Radio 3 in the week ahead, but the main focus is not "bumping up future Radio 3 programmes", as you put it - it's a chance to alert listeners to new recordings, forthcoming festivals and concerts, new research and other early music related stories that otherwise wouldn't find their way onto the airwaves.

With regard to your comment on the placing of the bulletin, it was decided by the Radio 3 commissioners that this shouldn't feel like a "tag-on" at the end of the programme, but rather an integral part of the Early Music Show itself, featuring interview clips from performers, festival directors, academics and so on. Sometimes, depending on the layout and content of the programme itself, it may be more appropriate to end on the news bulletin - for instance, if there's a concert with just one, or two lengthy pieces in it - but as a rule of thumb, we've been asked to tuck them into the main body of the programme whenever possible.

You may be surprised to hear that the majority of feedback from listeners so far has been overwhelmingly positive, and I hope, as the bulletins settle into the Early Music Show framework, you will get used to them and see their worth. Perhaps you and your fellow For3 Forum users might even suggest some items we can include in future bulletins? Suggestions for early music content are always gratefully received.

All best wishes

Les


I wonder who these numerous EMS listeners are who want these intrusive adverts? I guess the only ray of hope is: "Sometimes, depending on the layout and content of the programme itself, it may be more appropriate to end on the news bulletin..."

They had 5 feedbacks of which 3 were positive...
The response about the placing of the intrusion suggests universal cloth ears if they cannot understand that the mood built by a piece of music can be utterly destroyed by such a hyperactive gabble bursting in. It also disrupts the chain of thought so that picking up the thread of what was being said in the programme proper is compromised. If this is the direction of travel (there is already too much of the talking over music habit)and the level of "thinking" I fear the future of the EMS is not rosy, certainly not as one of the few quality programmes left on R3. This

tuck them into the main body of the programme whenever possible.

sent shivers down my spine, conjuring up infiltration, drip feeding, breaking down resistance, until the EMS is just another version of the morning schedule formula - as has being done with Afternoon Concert.
Given Mark Seow's credentials (https://markseow.co.uk/about) I am rather surprised that he is happy with the set-up - but perhaps the kudos of R3 over-rides any misgivings - or he favours the jumping around from one thing to another, lack of continuity approach. I can't say "On Bach's farm" rings any bells, so I must have missed that particular EMS.

[MickyD]

I would indeed be surprised that the feedback was 'overwhelmingly positive'. It's the 'i hope you will get used to them and see their worth' that niggles me...very patronising and it's clear that they will continue with this awful idea whatever others think.