The Lost Sound - A documentary about the fortepiano

[ardcarp]

Oh dear. I should have kept my mouth shut. Anyway, I enjoyed the programme. Of course it's silly of me to say 'he would have liked' etc, etc. The same doesn't apply to Strad and Amati violins, which are history in reverse!

One of my favourite cartoons:



Liszt needs a more robust instrument.

[RichardB]

The same doesn't apply to Strad and Amati violins, which are history in reverse!

Not really though - most Stradivari instruments that are being played now have been fitted with a thicker, heavier bass bar and either a new neck or the old one repositioned at a greater angle to the body, as well as a differently shaped bridge and of course metal strings (not to mention being played with a design of bow that dates from around 1800), so they end up having quite a different sound from when they were made, unless they're restored to their original setup as "baroque violins".

[Bryn]

Oh dear! What Beethoven "would have loved" if he had lived another hundred years is neither here nor there - what music would he have written if he'd had access to instruments that didn't exist in his time? Whatever he "would have loved", he actually played and wrote for instruments made by Streicher, Graf, Broadwood and the rest. Beethoven received a Broadwood in 1818 and kept it for the rest of his life. He is supposed to have been impressed by its more powerful sound, although by that time his hearing was seriously impaired, so that may have been a factor also. Nevertheless it was a wooden-framed instrument which would not have sounded much like a "modern" piano.

There's also the issue of the action. That may have been something that impressed him, too.

[kernelbogey]

Trying to escape Google is like trying to escape the weather.

'The rain it raineth on the just man and the unjust man alike; except that the unjust man hath the just man's umbrella.'

(I'm not sure who said this - sounds like Woody Allen - but I've put it in quotes to be clear it's not my original idea.)

Edit: I've misquoted a song by Dog Faced Hermans; but I'm going to leave my post as written.

[kernelbogey]

Yep before you know it the ads pushing used pianofortes will start popping up.

[MickyD]

It's worth mentioning that Edwin Beunk has made quite a few other short films about the pianos in his collection.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqc84DYlk55pysQFPPyIgOg

[ardcarp]

Thanks MickyD for that link. I shall be absorbed in these films for some time.

[Historian]

'The rain it raineth on the just man and the unjust man alike; except that the unjust man hath the just man's umbrella.'

(I'm not sure who said this - sounds like Woody Allen - but I've put it in quotes to be clear it's not my original idea.)

Edit: I've misquoted a song by Dog Faced Hermans; but I'm going to leave my post as written.

Originally attributed to Charles Bowen (1835-1894) in a slightly different form:

"The rain it raineth on the just
And also on the unjust fella;
But chiefly on the just, because
The unjust hath the just’s umbrella.”

[kernelbogey]

Originally attributed to Charles Bowen (1835-1894) in a slightly different form:

"The rain it raineth on the just
And also on the unjust fella;
But chiefly on the just, because
The unjust hath the just’s umbrella.”

Thanks, Historian, and another member for the PM.

[RichardB]

Yep before you know it the ads pushing used pianofortes will start popping up.

Oooh don't. I bought my little boy a microscope for his birthday a few weeks ago and now all I see on news sites is microscopes. I HAVE ONE NOW! Get that into your algorithms for pete's sake.

[Mandryka]

Re the sort of piano Beethoven was writing with, there’s always these

[Bryn]

Re the sort of piano Beethoven was writing with, there’s always these . . .

i.e. https://www.insidethehearingmachine....o-performances for Op. 109, 110 and 111.

Thanks for the fillip.

[Sir Velo]

A related documentary posted on the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment's website.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I think it was Robert Levin who said that that was missing the point. If Beethoven had lived a century later and had composed for a Steinway he would have written music for the Steinway (and the works would have been different as much because he was living a century later as because he was composing for a Steinway). But his compositions were composed to be played on those instruments and I think it was Bezuidenhout who said the music was exhilarating/exciting precisely because it was pushing the instrument to its extreme (not his exact words but something like that). No doubt Ludwig loved the instruments he composed for too. I doubt that he lamented, 'Oh, if only these pianos could … '

I know this is a reasonable argument, in that music composed would largely have been practical for performance at the time, but the question of whether the music would have been very different in general sound/technique/structure can only be speculative. Music written by any particular composer would be broadly similar across his/her works. Beethoven's piano music has the same gutsy strength, whether composed for the piano, the string quartet or the orchestra. The writing style was amended to some extent, but these slight modifications work as if well (or perhaps better) on modern instruments.
J.S.Bach didn't even modify his textures to any significant extent, writing similar musical lines, whether for keyboard, voice or any orchestral instruments.
So I don't hold with the view that composers' music wold have been very different, had modern instruments been available. In Beethoven's final piano sonata movement (Op.111) he wrote notes that could not be sustained on the instruments of the time, perhaps more in hope than expectation. That hope was eventually fulfilled, though not in his lifetime.

[Bryn]

I know this is a reasonable argument, in that music composed would largely have been practical for performance at the time, but the question of whether the music would have been very different in general sound/technique/structure can only be speculative. Music written by any particular composer would be broadly similar across his/her works. Beethoven's piano music has the same gutsy strength, whether composed for the piano, the string quartet or the orchestra. The writing style was amended to some extent, but these slight modifications work as if well (or perhaps better) on modern instruments.
J.S.Bach didn't even modify his textures to any significant extent, writing similar musical lines, whether for keyboard, voice or any orchestral instruments.
So I don't hold with the view that composers' music wold have been very different, had modern instruments been available. In Beethoven's final piano sonata movement (Op.111) he wrote notes that could not be sustained on the instruments of the time, perhaps more in hope than expectation. That hope was eventually fulfilled, though not in his lifetime.

How very Jungian is this? Just alerted (on Facebook) to the following translation:

"Ludwig of Beethoven (1779-1827)
Arches Quartet No. 16 in having a major surgery, 135".

Gives some context to the notion of Beethoven having a modern iron-framed Steinway in mind when composing Op 111.