The music of Ancient Greece: EMS 28 January

[doversoul1]

Lucie Skeaping talks to Prof Armand D'Angour of Jesus College Oxford about the music and poetry of Ancient Greece, from Homer to Mesomedes via Sappho, Euripides, Pindar and Athenaeus.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09pl81v

Ancient Greek poetry, yes but music? Intriguing.

[Stanfordian]

Lucie Skeaping talks to Prof Armand D'Angour of Jesus College Oxford about the music and poetry of Ancient Greece, from Homer to Mesomedes via Sappho, Euripides, Pindar and Athenaeus.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09pl81v

Ancient Greek poetry, yes but music? Intriguing.

Hiya doversoul1,

Sonata for solo lyre played by Homer, maybe?

[ardcarp]

Like this maybe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elERNFoEf3Y

Or this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkPlNQ4ap1o

I think musical accompaniment to recitation is documented....but beyond that everything must be conjectural. But many people have conjectured!

I often think EMS doesn't go early enough...so can't complain about this one..

Some images: https://www.pinterest.co.uk/magistramichaud/lyre/

[MickyD]

This one has been in the catalogue for years...a very interesting disc:

[Bryn]

This one has been in the catalogue for years...a very interesting disc:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00004TVG7/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[jean]

I think musical accompaniment to recitation is documented....but beyond that everything must be conjectural. But many people have conjectured!

When I was doing Greek Tragedy at University in the 60s, they told us sternly that nobody really knew anything about Ancient Greek music. But I've heard there have been advances in research since then.

What I'd like to know is how closely the Church modes with their fancy Greek names corresponded to anything the Ancient Greeks used.

[Richard Tarleton]

This is nothing. Sarah W has just played some Palaeolithic music from 40,000 years ago, played on a flute made from the ulna of a griffon vulture found in the French Pyrenees. Or rather a modern reconstruction of what palaeolithic music might have been like . I thought it sounded a bit like Gheorge Zamfir's music for Picnic at Hanging Rock.

[ardcarp]

played on a flute made from the ulna of a griffon vulture

Beats the Andean Nose Flute every time.......

What I'd like to know is how closely the Church modes with their fancy Greek names corresponded to anything the Ancient Greeks used.

I can't pretend to any specialist knowledge at all. But Gregorian Chant (we were told...also at university in the 60s!) had its roots in Mozarabic chant. I gather 'Mozarabic' has something to do with Muslims in the Iberian peninsula. I also gather that Greek culture was an influence on Islamic scholarship...especially their mathematics. So why not their religious chanting? Since 'chant' was an orally transmitted phenomenon, it wouldn't be surprising if it had its roots...constantly evolving of course...in the Ancient World. As for the fancy Greek names for the Modes, I suspect they were applied retrospectively. Maybe we'll learn more today in EMS.

Then there's Ambrosian chant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU4ycRzwqDc

(Don't know where the 'drone' comes from. I tried working out the notes, and don't think it's a cantus firmus...just a bass drone going up and down to suit the chant.)

[Serial_Apologist]

Beats the Andean Nose Flute every time.......



I can't pretend to any specialist knowledge at all. But Gregorian Chant (we were told...also at university in the 60s!) had its roots in Mozarabic chant. I gather 'Mozarabic' has something to do with Muslims in the Iberian peninsula. I also gather that Greek culture was an influence on Islamic scholarship...especially their mathematics. So why not their religious chanting? Since 'chant' was an orally transmitted phenomenon, it wouldn't be surprising if it had its roots...constantly evolving of course...in the Ancient World. As for the fancy Greek names for the Modes, I suspect they were applied retrospectively. Maybe we'll learn more today in EMS.

Then there's Ambrosian chant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU4ycRzwqDc

(Don't know where the 'drone' comes from. I tried working out the notes, and don't think it's a cantus firmus...just a bass drone going up and down to suit the chant.)

I'd assumed Egon Wellesz still to be the main authority on this subject - perhaps he's been super seeded!

[doversoul1]

This was most interesting. I don't think I'd ever heard about Greek notation and songs based on it. Lovely songs. How little we have changed!

[ardcarp]

That was a fascinating programme. Prof Armand was such a powerful advocate for his re-interpretation of music from The Ancient World, one almost felt his conjecture must be right! Callum Armstrong's playing of the Aulos (about 11 mins in) was stunning, I thought*. Though this wasn't one of the programme's own recordings, they did have the amazing singer Steff Conner accompanied by Barnaby Brown. I knew Barnaby when he was a choral scholar at Gonville and Caius in the early 90s, and it was interesting to hear that choir attempt some chorus work...for which pronouncing Ancient Greek must have been the hardest part. Also interesting to hear Barnaby wax lyrical on his subject. Playing 'ethnic' pipes was always his passion.

Interesting to hear that, according to slightly later writers, the Mixolydian mode was Sppho's favourite. (Though I gather what was then known as the Mixolydian does not correspond to the 'modern' version, i.e. a scale exemplified by playing all the white notes of the piano starting on G.)

Prof Armand was emphatic that music was an integral part of poetry and recitation in Ancient Greece; and it never occurred to me that the words 'lyrical' and even 'lyrics' stem from 'lyre', the instrument.

* And no breaks for breath! Circular breathing throughout. Must be killing!

[richardfinegold]

Most Greek epic poetry was meant to be sung and danced. Without the music and dance we only get part of what Homer intended us to experience. Imagine knowing Opera only from the Libretto

[oddoneout]

That was a fascinating programme.

I quite agree. The sound of the aulos was not what I had expected and I think would make a candidate for a 'what do you think this instrument is' quiz sound only question. To my ears it bore a striking resemblance at times to something in the northumbrian pipes clan. Looking it up on the internet later and seeing the difference between the reconstructed and the current folk version was also interesting - 2 different sounds and ways of playing. One of those 'feel good ' bits of radio - enthusiastic and articulate studio guests, and plenty for the brain cells to chew on. Couldn't help being reminded of David Munrow.

[ardcarp]

The sound of the aulos was not what I had expected

I'm not sure what I expected! But its timbre sounded different in the hands of Barnaby (more quavering and oboe-ish) and in the hands of Calum (more steady and clarinettish). Not very apt descriptions perhaps.

There was a passing reference to a plucked string instrument other than the lyre. Reading up a bit about Ancient Greek music, it seems that Pythagoras...scourge of many a schoolkid....did experiments with a monochord to establish the mathematical ratios of the length of string which produced an octave (2:1) a fifth(3:2) and a fourth (3:4). And some other stuff.

[Bryn]

I'm not sure what I expected! But its timbre sounded different in the hands of Barnaby (more quavering and oboe-ish) and in the hands of Calum (more steady and clarinettish). Not very apt descriptions perhaps.

There was a passing reference to a plucked string instrument other than the lyre. Reading up a bit about Ancient Greek music, it seems that Pythagoras...scourge of many a schoolkid....did experiments with a monochord to establish the mathematical ratios of the length of string which produced an octave (2:1) a fifth(3:2) and a fourth (3:4). And some other stuff.

Thus was discovered the dreaded Pythagorean comma.