Bach’s 4 orchestral suites: EMS 29 January

[doversoul1]

Hannah French looks in depth at JS Bach's four orchestral suites, which play something of a Cinderella role to the Brandenburg Concertos. Though they are some of Bach's most festive works, they remain an incomplete set, never published, or even considered a collection in his lifetime. Basically, they are suites of dance-pieces in French Baroque style preceded by an ouverture. This genre was extremely popular in Germany during Bach's day, and he showed far less interest in it than was usual. Telemann left us with 135 examples, Graupner 85 and Fasch a neat 100, so why did such a prolific and accomplished composer as Bach shun the genre? Hannah delves into some of the many recordings of the pieces to find out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08c2n8h

… which play something of a Cinderella role to the Brandenburg Concertos.
Not sure what this means.

… they remain an incomplete set, never published, or even considered a collection in his lifetime.
That's interesting.

… why did such a prolific and accomplished composer as Bach shun the genre?
Shunned the genre, did he?

[MickyD]

The poor man was probably too busy having to write and rehearse all those cantatas week in, week out, let alone look after all those children! But this promises to be an interesting EMS - thanks DS.

[richardfinegold]

Hannah French looks in depth at JS Bach's four orchestral suites, which play something of a Cinderella role to the Brandenburg Concertos. Though they are some of Bach's most festive works, they remain an incomplete set, never published, or even considered a collection in his lifetime. Basically, they are suites of dance-pieces in French Baroque style preceded by an ouverture. This genre was extremely popular in Germany during Bach's day, and he showed far less interest in it than was usual. Telemann left us with 135 examples, Graupner 85 and Fasch a neat 100, so why did such a prolific and accomplished composer as Bach shun the genre? Hannah delves into some of the many recordings of the pieces to find out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08c2n8h

… which play something of a Cinderella role to the Brandenburg Concertos.
Not sure what this means.

… they remain an incomplete set, never published, or even considered a collection in his lifetime.
That's interesting.

… why did such a prolific and accomplished composer as Bach shun the genre?
Shunned the genre, did he?

If he shunned the genre, there is some irony in the fact that his are so much better known than those of his more prolific colleagues

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Who writes this headline guff? The same person who writes the infantile thread-starters on Radio 3's Facebook page, perhaps?

[MickyD]

I don't think Miss French had a great deal extra to impart, but I was at least grateful to be made aware of that Sonnerie CD of the early versions of the Suites - the extract made me think it would be a disc worth acquiring.

[ardcarp]

]I don't think Miss French had a great deal extra to impart[/B], but I was at least grateful to be made aware of that Sonnerie CD of the early versions of the Suites - the extract made me think it would be a disc worth acquiring.

Maybe she didn't, but for me at least the best thing about EMS is that the music:talk ratio is very high! Anyway I quite enjoyed the Heifetz and Busch extracts and her comments about tempi through the decades.

[Quarky]

This genre was extremely popular in Germany during Bach's day, and he showed far less interest in it than was usual. Telemann left us with 135 examples, Graupner 85 and Fasch a neat 100, so why ?

Perhaps in a subsequent programme, Hannah might explore these other 300 Suites. It has to be assumed some are at least as good as Bach's, particularly if he wasn't interested in the genre.

But perhaps that would not draw in enough listeners.

[doversoul1]

I wouldn’t call the way HF talked on this programme as ‘looks in depth’ and I still don’t get this ‘something of a Cinderella role to the Brandenburg Concertos’ bit. Does that mean the Brandenburgs are ugly sisters? Also, is there any reason to suspect that JS wrote suites No.5 and 6 other than the fact that number six was thought to be a perfect number in his days? And CPE sold them off or lit the fire with?

Ah well, I enjoyed the music.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Baroque (and Early Classical) Music was frequently published in collections of six pieces or twelve works - the Trial of Harmony & Invention Op8, Handel's (six) Concerti Grossi Op3, and twelve, Op6, Mozart's six Sonatas for Piano with Violin (or Flute) Accompaniment, Op3.

But 6 is (literally) a "Perfect Number", the smallest there is: the numbers it can be divided by (1,2 & 3) together add up to produce it.

[Sir Velo]

I still don’t get this ‘something of a Cinderella role to the Brandenburg Concertos’ bit. Does that mean the Brandenburgs are ugly sisters?

Usual meaning is to denote that something is considered a poor relation.

[richardfinegold]

I wouldn’t call the way HF talked on this programme as ‘looks in depth’ and I still don’t get this ‘something of a Cinderella role to the Brandenburg Concertos’ bit. Does that mean the Brandenburgs are ugly sisters? Also, is there any reason to suspect that JS wrote suites No.5 and 6 other than the fact that number six was thought to be a perfect number in his days? And CPE sold them off or lit the fire with?

Ah well, I enjoyed the music.

However, some of the suggestions here would make a great idea for a program around the theme of exploring Orchestral Suites by pre Classical era Composers. I have assorted discs by Teleman,Fasch, Zelenka and others that I acquired rather randomly. I would welcome some recommendations. After all, the chances of encountering this music in a concert is pretty slim

[Richard Barrett]

I find it odd that these pieces by JS Bach are still routinely referred to as "orchestral" when they're really nothing of the kind - no.2 for example requires no more than six players (flute, two violins, viola and a basso continuo using cello and harpsichord). I don't believe there's any evidence that Bach performed them with more than one or two players to a part... although the title is given as "Orchestral Suites" even on the cover of Sigiswald Kuijken's recent historically scrupulous set.

They weren't intended as a set in the same way as the Brandenburg Concertos of course, which is why there are only four. Maybe Bach wrote more when he was Kapellmeister in Köthen. There's also BWV 1070 in G minor which found its way into the BWV despite clearly not being by JS Bach (it's probably by Wilhelm Friedemann).

There are very many fine pieces in this form from German composers of the first half of the 18th century. Zelenka's complete "orchestral" music amounts to three CDs' worth so that's relatively easy to explore. I've recently been enjoying a CD of such works by Fasch, directed by Ludger Remy on the CPO label. But my top recommendation in this area from the last few years is the second of three CDs of instrumental music by Christoph Graupner directed by Siegbert Rampe on Dabringhaus & Grimm. You can hear the entire disc here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yeokjn86G4M

[vinteuil]

But my top recommendation in this area from the last few years is the second of three CDs of instrumental music by Christoph Graupner directed by Siegbert Rampe on Dabringhaus & Grimm. You can hear the entire disc here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yeokjn86G4M

Siegbert Rampe also gives us Bach's Orchestral Suites BWV 119a and 97a -

http://amzn.eu/89XjcN3

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I find it odd that these pieces by JS Bach are still routinely referred to as "orchestral" when they're really nothing of the kind - no.2 for example requires no more than six players (flute, two violins, viola and a basso continuo using cello and harpsichord). I don't believe there's any evidence that Bach performed them with more than one or two players to a part... although the title is given as "Orchestral Suites" even on the cover of Sigiswald Kuijken's recent historically scrupulous set.

That's hardly surprising when one considers the limited resources available for Bach's performances.

[Richard Barrett]

That's hardly surprising when one considers the limited resources available for Bach's performances.

You mean the resources he wrote his music for? Yes indeed - I can't think of any composer at any time in history who has had unlimited resources to work with.

Playing Bach's B minor Suite with a string orchestra makes no more sense than doing the same with a Haydn string quartet.