Late Baroque, Early Classical or…?

[doversoul1]

Naming, labelling or categorising isn’t terribly popular amongst the members of this forum but I think it will be good if a work like this is acknowledged as part of a significant and distinct period in the history of music.

JCF Bach: Symphony in B flat, WI/20,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06y922c

[Pabmusic]

Naming, labelling or categorising isn’t terribly popular amongst the members of this forum but I think it will be good if a work like this is acknowledged as part of a significant and distinct period in the history of music.

JCF Bach: Symphony in B flat, WI/20,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06y922c

Well, I think it's a lovely piece; thank you.

The problem with labelling is precisely the same as happens in the science of taxonomy (classifying species). It is not exact, and works best where we ignore extinct species. The fact is that there are no natural barriers between one species and the next, but it's genuinely useful to pretend there are. For 999 cases in 1000 (or an even smaller proportion) it'll be accurate enough. Then we discover the platypus and echidna.

[french frank]

I think it will be good if a work like this is acknowledged as part of a significant and distinct period in the history of music.

Distinct from CPE? He's sometimes labelled 'transition' which can be confusing, not to say lacking precision …

[jean]

It doesn't sound distinctive enough to merit a label of its own...insofar as it falls within already-labelled categories, it's definitely not any sort of baroque, however late!

[vinteuil]

... if I had to label it, I wd probably say 'Pre-Classical' - in the same way that I think about Johann Christian and Wilhelm Friedemann.

Where wd you put Abel?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

My mind instantly registered "Early Classical" - and continued listening did nothing to suggest "Baroque". The performance was a bit lacklustre, I felt - the piece would gain in charm and attraction given a performance with a bit more oomph!

[ardcarp]

Taxonomy? 'Transitional', why not. But how exciting it must have been to be a younger Bach, a Stamitz, an Abel or even a Gluck. You had been trammelled in counterpoint by a Baroque master (or Dad), had probably sung or played it in church or court as a youngster and now you feel a wind of change blowing. Slow harmonic rhythm, transparent textures and an emphasis on melody. How exciting. And how the oldies must have tut-tutted!

the piece would gain in charm and attraction given a performance with a bit more oomph!

...but it wasn't PDQ

[vinteuil]

Taxonomy? 'Transitional', why not. But how exciting it must have been to be a younger Bach, a Stamitz, an Abel or even a Gluck. :

... yes, Gluck. Where do we want to 'place' him??

Actually I don't think you can even label one composer. JS Bach's early works have a 'renaissance' feel, before he moves on to being 'baroque'. The early cantatas are very different from his later productions. I don't think all performers (J-E G, I'm looking at you... ) are yet sensitive enuff to the different sound-worlds of early or late Bach...

[ardcarp]

JS Bach's early works have a 'renaissance' feel, before he moves on to being 'baroque'

Ah, Gottes Zeit, one of my favourites; and that searing, soulful sinfonia that starts it off......

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I don't think all performers (J-E G, I'm looking at you... ) are yet sensitive enuff to the different sound-worlds of early or late Bach...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

an emphasis on melody.

??? But there's only ever one at a time!

[MickyD]

Despite the labelling difficulties, it is always so entertaining to listen for the first time to works from this transition period. I got a huge shock just recently, when I finally got hold of the complete J.C. Bach keyboard concertos set recorded by Anthony Halstead and The Hanover Band. I was expecting a constant flow of pleasant early classical melodies, but the two volumes of The Berlin Harpsichord Concertos soon scotched that. Presumably under the influence of older brother CPE, these works sound, to me, completely in the same vein as his sibling's dark, moody pieces. It was a wonderful discovery for me, when I had always thought I could tell my JC from my CPE!

[doversoul1]

My original thought wasn’t exactly academic / musicological but more practical. I thought because these composers, Stamitz, Abel, Gluck (ardcarp #7) or Clementi, Jommelli and the Bach Bros. (to name but a few) have no label of their own, as far as Radio3 is concerned, they are effectively non-existence except for the two early music programmes and Through the Night. A lot of music from this period may not be deeply soul-searching or earth-shatteringly new but that can be said about a lot of the current R3 favourites. If there were a shelf (or a box) labelled ‘Early Classical’ for example, wouldn’t these composers’ works be more readily picked up by the presenters and producers instead of many of those ‘oh, no, not this again-s’?

[ardcarp]

If there were a shelf (or a box) labelled ‘Early Classical’

There's quite a comprehensive, if virtual, shelf on Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Classical-era_composers

I suppose one might need to choose carefully.........

[jean]

I don't think it would help at all, since by the time we've got to 'Classical' proper with (say) Haydn and Mozart, we've run into confusion withthe more general meaning of 'Classical' for just about everything, and it is no longer useful in its narrower definition.