Late Baroque, Early Classical or…?

[doversoul1]

Very interesting indeed, I don't know those at all, though I'm very fond of the G minor symphony op.6/6. And the thing is I'm sure I have those Halstead CDs...

Here are some

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6GhgBbOojI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUKwmMyLoTQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsDiwPm7AXs

or this

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/CPO/9999302

[Flosshilde]

divisions into "periods" often depend a lot on the unspoken musical attitudes of those making them, which perhaps oughtn't to go unquestioned.

And also usually happens after - sometimes long after - the period in question.

[ardcarp]

What do we think Bach would have thought of equal temperament?

While Bach did not (as far as I know) have the theoretical knowledge to propose Equal Temperament (which wasn't formulated officially until much later) he certainly used something approaching it. Because he made full use of modulation into not only related keys but often into remote ones in his keyboard works, he urged Silbermann (his favourite organ builder) to 'sharpen all the thirds', by which he meant widen all the thirds. We can therefore assume that Bach, when tuning his own harpsichords, would have done likewise. Silbermann, if not told otherwise by JSB, would most probably have tuned his organs in some form of Mean Tone temperament in which a few keys sound lovely but others disgusting (e.g. the dominant chord in F# minor has a screaming third in it). In Equal Temparament all the major thirds are widened by a mathematically calculated amount, meaning that none is pure, but neither are any so vile as to be unusable.

In short, Jean, I think Bach would have loved it...but don't tell the Hippsters I said so.

[MickyD]

Getting to know these six extraordinary harpsichord concertos, written by Johann Christian Bach when he was a teenager living with his 'already famous' brother CPE in Berlin after their father had died, was a wonderful voyage of discovery for me, nearly 20 years ago.
It was great to see, in the recording sessions, the faces of the Hanover Band's string players clearly showing astonishment at the sounds of the fiery, passionate and mercurial music of JCB, so very different in style from the suave, elegant, restrained and euphonious works that he was to write only a few years later in London.
As far as I know, he re-captured this 'pre Sturm und Drang' style only once more during his sadly short life ( dying in 1782 aged 46) in the Symphony in G minor Op6/6.
It is very moving to read the late Ernest Warburton's notes on the 'Berlin concerto' in Bb, possibly the earliest of the set, in which JCB may well have been trying to prove to his older brother CPE that he could definitely compose some good music: on page 6 of the autograph MSS of this piece he wrote
"Ich habe dieses Conc. gemacht...ist das nicht schön?"
( English translation:
"I have made this concerto... is it not beautiful?")

Thanks for the anecdote of the recording sessions, Tony. Interesting that professionals, not just amateurs like me, are astonished by this extraordinary chapter from JC's life. Since buying the set, those two discs have hardly been out of my CD player! As for the G minor symphony, this has long been a favourite of mine - how delighted I was to find that there was more of this style to be discovered in those earlier keyboard concertos.

By the way, the set is beautifully played and recorded. The very different piano concertos are pure enchantment, and I like the choice of the Broadwood.

[Richard Barrett]

Here are some

Thanks doversoul... but indeed I do have the CDs, never yet listened to. That's this morning's listening taken care of.

[Richard Barrett]

While Bach did not (as far as I know) have the theoretical knowledge to propose Equal Temperament (which wasn't formulated officially until much later) he certainly used something approaching it.

Here http://www.larips.com/ you can find Bradley Lehman's account of deciphering the flourish at the top of the titlepage of WTC1 as a diagrammatic guide to the temperament he had in mind, and an explanation of how it works. Significant in relation to your quote of Bach's instructions to Silbermann is:

The way I believe Bach himself explained it to experienced harpsichord tuners by ear, step by step, with (or without!) his diagram:
* We set up the notes of the C major scale first, and then we fit the remaining notes into carefully compromised spots: not like the old style, where you were forced to choose either a sharp or a flat, and have it sound bad as the other one.
* Tune your natural 5ths F-C-G-D-A-E with your everyday process of making all the 5ths (or 4ths) waver with gentle equal quality, and checking that F-A and C-E each end up "a little sharp"; your checkpoint here is that F-A is wide at about 3 per second in the tenor.

[doversoul1]

Thanks doversoul... but indeed I do have the CDs, never yet listened to. That's this morning's listening taken care of.

Lucky you‼ They are now all download only, except for the box set. Many thanks for mentioning the recordings.

[vinteuil]

What do we think Bach would have thought of equal temperament?

... there was a very good article in 'Early Music' by John Barnes in 1979* analysing the various 'well tempered' temperaments with which Bach wd have been acquainted - ie those temperaments in which is more-or-less possible to play in all the keys (not the same as 'equal temperament' where the innate imperfections are divided equally between all keys, making none absolutely true). The analysis looked at the 48 and demonstrated (i thought quite nicely) how Bach made use of the 'better' and 'less good' harmonies to a purpose; the result concluded (I think) that Bach probably had Werckmeister (or was it Kirnberger III?) in mind as the temperament underlying the WTC. Doubtless there has been further scholarly analysis since.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/index.html

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/bachtemps.html

* Bach's keyboard temperament : Internal evidence from the Well-Tempered Clavier
Early Music (1979) 7 (2): 236-249


EDIT - sorry, hadn't seen Richard's earlier post



.

[vinteuil]

... Doubtless there has been further scholarly analysis since.






.

... I am of course hopelessly out of date.

See Bradley Lehman's article, pages 137-163 (esp from p 154) here :

http://www.vdgs.org.uk/files/VdGSJournal/Vol-03-2.pdf

[MickyD]

Lucky you‼ They are now all download only, except for the box set. Many thanks for mentioning the recordings.

All six CDs are available from here, for under 30 euros. A real bargain.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Johann-Christian-Bach-1735-1782-S%E4mtliche-Klavierkonzerte/hnum/6278038

[Richard Barrett]

All six CDs are available from here, for under 30 euros. A real bargain.

I've just listened to the six Berlin concertos. Indeed they sound very different in style from JCB's later work. I was a bit surprised however when the F minor concerto began because I previously knew that as a work by CPEB, and it's been recorded several times as such. The liner notes tell a complicated story about various possible attributions (including WFB also!). I feel it stands out suspiciously from the other pieces in the set. Not that this matters particularly!

[Tony Halstead]

I've just listened to the six Berlin concertos. Indeed they sound very different in style from JCB's later work. I was a bit surprised however when the F minor concerto began because I previously knew that as a work by CPEB, and it's been recorded several times as such. The liner notes tell a complicated story about various possible attributions (including WFB also!). I feel it stands out suspiciously from the other pieces in the set. Not that this matters particularly!

Which concerto in F minor exactly? There are two in the set of six, so, one on each of the two CDs.

[Richard Barrett]

Which concerto in F minor exactly? There are two in the set of six, so, one on each of the two CDs.

Oops. I wasn't paying attention to keys on the first CD. I meant the second one on the second CD. This one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJFwW4DajrE

[MickyD]

Oops. I wasn't paying attention to keys on the first CD. I meant the second one on the second CD. This one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJFwW4DajrE

This is the one that I really like most of the six, and which I found most difficult to believe was by JC.

[Richard Barrett]

Here's some more information on that piece, from cpebach.org which is an ongoing project to make a complete edition of CPEB's works freely available online. It seems the attribution to JCB, while the best current theory, is still not definitively established.

Concerto in F Minor, H 484.2 (Wade, appendix B, X7). This work, evidently by Johann Christian Bach (Warburton C 73) is transmitted in the following sources: D-B, SA 2633 (score in the hand of Carl Friedrich Christian Fasch; attribution: “dall Sign C.F.E. Bach”); D-B, SA 2634 (score in the hand of Johann Carl Samuel Possin; attribution: “da C.P.E. Bach”; three parts written by an unidentified copyist); D-B, Mus. ms. Bach P 680 (score in the hand of an unknown copyist; attribution: “da Wilh. Friedemann Bach”); D-B, Mus. ms. Bach St 482 (set of parts in the hand of an unknown copyist; attribution on the wrapper in the hand of Nichelmann: “dal Sgr. J.C. Bach detto il Milanese riveduto dal Sgr C.P.E. Bach”); D-B, Mus. ms. Bach St 483 (set of parts in the hand of an unknown copyist; attribution: “Del Sigr. C.P.E. Bach”); D-LEb, Go. S. 40 (set of parts in the hand of Johann Christoph Farlau and an anonymous copyist; attribution “da J.C. Bach” added by a third hand);26 D-WRa, Mus. III c:112 (set of parts in the hand of an anonymous copyist; attribution: “C.P.E. Bach”).27 For none of the surviving sources could a direct connection to any of the Bach sons be established. Wilhelm Friedemann and C.P.E. Bach can be ruled out as composers for stylistic reasons. The most detailed attribution (in St 482) has been ascribed to Nichelmann; it seems to be based on firsthand biographical information. J.C. Bach’s authorship is also supported by the source in D-LEb, as well as by the stylistic profile of the work, which is close to other compositions from his Berlin period (1750–55).28

What a mess! And I noticed that most of the Youtube clips of this piece attribute it to WFB.