Late Baroque, Early Classical or…?

[Richard Barrett]

Bach didn't imagine the sound of his keyboards as a temporary stopgap until Mr Steinway came along.

But, according to an opinion one still hears sometimes, he would have preferred his music to be played on a Steinway, or he would have preferred a choir rather than vocal soloists. Surely it isn't possible to say that without being Bach, which unfortunately nobody is. Of course Bach wrote his work from an intimate knowledge of and many-sided interest in the instruments available to him (and some he had a hand in developing, such as the curved oboe da caccia, not to mention his relationships with some of the leading organ builders of his time) so I think it's reasonable to think that using those instruments is going to reveal extra layers of timbral expressivity, and not using them (same goes for size of vocal ensembles) is going to miss something, even if there are other factors which might add something else (and not just "I don't know much about 18th century performance practice but I know what I bloody well like"!).

(edit to get somewhat back on topic) An interesting phenomenon is that the composers whose work is the nominal subject of the thread were very seldom performed before the then-young HIPP movement took an interest in them. (The same goes for many earlier composers of course.) Nor have they ben taken up in the meantime by non-HIPP performers on the whole, with the exception of the occasional bit of CPE played on a "modern" piano. Why should this be?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes - I deleted a "preferred" in my post and replaced it with "enjoyed", because both Simpson and ahinton carefully avoided the word, but I have heard some make this claim. What they mean is that they "prefer" to hear it on a Steinway/full choir (and if they were honest enough to say so, I couldn't and wouldn't contradict them). Personally, I think this shows a certain lack of appreciation of what Bach achieved as a master of timbre. Yes, of course messrs Fischer, Gould and Denk (and others) provide remarkable Musical experiences in their own terms - but the "Bach would have preferred" way of thinking suggests that this is better than Bach imagined. I get quite miffed when this is suggested - and you wouldn't like to see me when I'm miffed!

[subcontrabass]

Also, the one voice to a part matter, whilst something for which there's ample historical evidence,

I have looked at much of this "evidence" and find it severely lacking in relevance. The main argument appears to be that since there is only one copy of each voice part only one person can have sung that part. That is an argument that can only have been put forward by someone who has never sung from partbooks. Up to three adults or up to five children can (and in the case of two choirs in which I sang for some time did) sing from a single copy.

[Richard Barrett]

The main argument appears to be that since there is only one copy of each voice part only one person can have sung that part.

Actually that isn't the main argument. As you say it would hold very little water on its own. There's also evidence from contemporary documents including some written by Bach himself, iconographic evidence, and, rather importantly in my opinion, the fact that there is no real difference between the way Bach writes for his soloists and for his "chorus" in the cantatas. Andrew Parrott's book on the subject is quite convincing I think, I mean it convinced me, and I was quite the sceptic before reading it.

[subcontrabass]

iconographic evidence,

Like the opening picture here: https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articl...ontroversy.pdf ?

[Richard Barrett]

I see you mean business! So your evidence that it's a picture of a choir and not a group of schoolboys would be...?

[ahinton]

I don't personally "dismiss" performances on instruments Bach never heard

I would never have suggested any such thing!

Nor do I discount the possibility that Bach might have enjoyed hearing the Italian Concerto played by electric guitars, saxophones, quartertone electric keyboards and synthesized drumpads.

Whilst he might have done, he might probably have been more interested in (or irritated by!) performances of it on a later keyboard instrument, by which I do not just mean a modern Steinway or Bösendorfer which are built to enable performances in large venues than those in which Bach might ever have expected his keyboard works (other than the organ pieces, of course) to be performed, but also the Érards and Pleyels to which Chopin was accustomed; that said, without being able to ask him, we can never know, of course.

But the point that Simpson seems to have missed is that Bach's Music sounds astonishingly well when played on instruments that he knew, just as much as Debussy's Etudes sound astonishingly well when played on the pianos of his time (even if he might have enjoyed hearing them played on a harpsichord). Bach wrote as idiomatically for the keyboards of his time as Debussy does for those of his - and just as we don't (and cannot) think of the piano as a prototype for some other not-yet-invented keyboard instrument, so Bach didn't (and couldn't) imagine the sound of his keyboards as a temporary stopgap until Mr Steinway came along.

All true, of course - although I should add that I'm unaware that Simpson would have believed other than that "Bach's Music sounds astonishingly well when played on instruments that he knew, just as much as Debussy's Etudes sound astonishingly well when played on the pianos of his time", as you say. That said, piano design development changed little during Debussy's active lifetime as it has done in Liszt's and Alkan's so, when he came to write those remarkable Études at the end of it, he could possibly have begun to wonder if it might not change much in the immediate future either.

[ahinton]

Actually that isn't the main argument. As you say it would hold very little water on its own. There's also evidence from contemporary documents including some written by Bach himself, iconographic evidence, and, rather importantly in my opinion, the fact that there is no real difference between the way Bach writes for his soloists and for his "chorus" in the cantatas. Andrew Parrott's book on the subject is quite convincing I think, I mean it convinced me, and I was quite the sceptic before reading it.

Very much to the point, especially what you write about Bach's vocal writing which must at times have severely taxed both soloists and "chorus" members alike.

[subcontrabass]

I see you mean business! So your evidence that it's a picture of a choir and not a group of schoolboys would be...?

Not my evidence - the original caption?

[jean]

What do we think Bach would have thought of equal temperament?

[Richard Barrett]

Not my evidence - the original caption?

You mean the original caption on that website. The picture is a small detail of the frontispiece of the Schulordnung for the Thomasschule published in 1723 (before Bach's arrival in Leipzig, in fact), which you can see in full here: http://www.cpebach.de/sites/default/...asschule_0.jpg - as you see the caption to the engraving nowhere mentions that this group of boys is a choir, that is something that's been added by the author of the article in your link.

[subcontrabass]

You mean the original caption on that website. The picture is a small detail of the frontispiece of the Schulordnung for the Thomasschule published in 1723 (before Bach's arrival in Leipzig, in fact), which you can see in full here: http://www.cpebach.de/sites/default/...asschule_0.jpg - as you see the caption to the engraving nowhere mentions that this group of boys is a choir, that is something that's been added by the author of the article in your link.

Were there any boys at the Thomas Schule who were not members of one of the four choirs that the school served? The rest of that article gives, I think, a fair summary of the debate (which I first encountered in the late 1960s when attending a concert conducted by Andrew Parrott). I find the arguments for small choir convincing, but not those for OVPP.

[Richard Barrett]

the four choirs that the school served

There you have it. The article gives a summary of two papers published in 2010 which, the author avers, didn't add anything substantial to what had already been published. As I say, I find Parrott's book rather convincing. I haven't seen any real arguments against his thesis which couldn't be summarised in the words "but it must have been like that!". All the actual evidence points in the other direction.

edit: ... but I'm going to have to bow out of further discussion now because I can't put my hands on my copy of the book...

[Tony Halstead]

Despite the labelling difficulties, it is always so entertaining to listen for the first time to works from this transition period. I got a huge shock just recently, when I finally got hold of the complete J.C. Bach keyboard concertos set recorded by Anthony Halstead and The Hanover Band. I was expecting a constant flow of pleasant early classical melodies, but the two volumes of The Berlin Harpsichord Concertos soon scotched that. Presumably under the influence of older brother CPE, these works sound, to me, completely in the same vein as his sibling's dark, moody pieces. It was a wonderful discovery for me, when I had always thought I could tell my JC from my CPE!

Getting to know these six extraordinary harpsichord concertos, written by Johann Christian Bach when he was a teenager living with his 'already famous' brother CPE in Berlin after their father had died, was a wonderful voyage of discovery for me, nearly 20 years ago.
It was great to see, in the recording sessions, the faces of the Hanover Band's string players clearly showing astonishment at the sounds of the fiery, passionate and mercurial music of JCB, so very different in style from the suave, elegant, restrained and euphonious works that he was to write only a few years later in London.
As far as I know, he re-captured this 'pre Sturm und Drang' style only once more during his sadly short life ( dying in 1782 aged 46) in the Symphony in G minor Op6/6.
It is very moving to read the late Ernest Warburton's notes on the 'Berlin concerto' in Bb, possibly the earliest of the set, in which JCB may well have been trying to prove to his older brother CPE that he could definitely compose some good music: on page 6 of the autograph MSS of this piece he wrote
"Ich habe dieses Conc. gemacht...ist das nicht schön?"
( English translation:
"I have made this concerto... is it not beautiful?")

[Richard Barrett]

these six extraordinary harpsichord concertos

Very interesting indeed, I don't know those at all, though I'm very fond of the G minor symphony op.6/6. And the thing is I'm sure I have those Halstead CDs...