Women Musicians and Composers in 17th-century Italy: EMS 15 November

[jean]

I have always found this sort of argument disturbing; requirements of women can end up being as prescriptive under the new dispensation as they were under the old.

[Serial_Apologist]

I have always found this sort of argument disturbing; requirements of women can end up being as prescriptive under the new dispensation as they were under the old.

I would say that that should not be inevitable, one way to seek to avoid such prescriptiveness being to understand its source or sources, and spot manifestations of their internalised enactions, as a precondition to combatting them.

[jean]

And if my understanding is different from yours? What then?

I am thinking back to many bitter arguments during the 1970s, when I had to struggle to assert that thinking in the way that I thought didn't mark me down as a dupe of the patriarchy. Thank goodness I wasn't trying to do anything really creative, or it might have been even worse.

[Serial_Apologist]

And if my understanding is different from yours? What then?

Well that would be welcome, since I personally am only offering some semblance of a theory, which is up for others to show as being full of holes.

I am thinking back to many bitter arguments during the 1970s, when I had to struggle to assert that thinking in the way that I thought didn't mark me down as a dupe of the patriarchy. Thank goodness I wasn't trying to do anything really creative, or it might have been even worse.

As part of a larger project I'm currently attempting an essay on the history of the London Musician's Collective, so I may have some idea of that of which you write. That said, it appears to have mainly been male members who were responsible for the divisions that beset and led in part, alongside the Arts Council's (and presumably government's) refusal to recognise improvised music as a valid form and fund it accordingly, to the eventual demise of that particular organisation.

[teamsaint]

I agree with you on Faure.

I would say to that that insufficient attention has thus far been paid, either to this subject, or to considering any manifestations of Yin in music of the Western canon to have either constituted or contributed to their greatness, for one yet to be able to judge the sex or gender of the composer by its sound. There just isn't enough of the stuff around to make that kind of judgement, especially when women have subconsciously conformed to expectations as to what sort of music they compose, or should be composing, and the underpinning models on offer.

This was one of the arguments, among others to do with women's creative marginalisation in critical and historical accounts of their place in the music, put forward by some feminists in jazz and particularly, post-punk rock music at the end of the 1970s and start of the 'eighties: namely, that women should set up their own women-only bands and music co-operatives if necessary*. In so doing, some, such as The Slits and The Guest Stars, were able to formulate non-male-determined popular genres with characteristics distinct from the male ones with their emphasis on thrusting display and misogynistic attitudes towards women. .

I think that is what bands like the Slits might have wanted. In truth, although certain post punk bands like the Slits , the Raincoats and perhaps punk bands like Siouxsie and the Banshees , made music that might be thought to have( at times) some more female characteristics, for example looser song structures and rhythmic flexibility, I rather suspect that heard blind, one might just as easily hear them as female fronted male bands. Interesting also that the Slits had a male drummer, and that they collaborated quite closely with the all male Pop Group. There were also a number of men in various line ups of The Raincoats .

I'd say that the aesthetic and politics around the music, ( look, album covers,interview content etc) was as significant in differentiating these bands from the male contemporaries as any real difference in sound.
I think.
Or have I missed the point?

sorry, have failed to mention the C17 or Italy at all .

[doversoul1]

Did anyone, apart from jean, actually listen to the programme?

Never mind. All these posts are terribly interesting. It will keep me busy all evening to read through and think about them.

However, if you happen to have 58 minutes to spare, do listen to the programme. It has some rarely heard (by me, that is) works.

[Lat-Literal]

An interesting thread.

My impression is that if one were to list every piece of classical music played on Radio 3 in the last couple of months along with the gender of the composer, an astonishingly high percentage of the women featured on the station would have been living before the Victorian age. Secondly, the sheer number of women composers since 1901 is also astonishing as soon as one even dips in to researching it. Given 20th Century advances generally the absence of "names" doesn't seem to be in line. Thirdly, I wouldn't personally be seeking or even expecting in music by women something that clearly distinguishes that music as having a female quality. I doubt as a man that it would be feasible in terms of finding any absolute definition in music although many feminists might well have different opinions on that point. Noting the references to all-women punk groups of which I am aware, there may be a contradiction between objectives and obligations. There often needs to be a level of aggression in the drive in order to become established in a significant way culturally.

My starting point tends to be that it is a pity how so much interesting music of a high standard is rarely mentioned. It is impossible not to note the gender imbalance in terms of what was and is brought to light. For those of us with instinctive curiosity, it is a natural area to explore. There can also be a feeling of doing something good in highlighting lesser known names but it isn't a job that should need to be done by we nobodies on a forum. Otherwise, there is a political question which I have raised elsewhere. I think if all the composers who were considered "towering" in the past were male - and they were all male - then largely male establishment wishes to find a "towering" figure in the present would automatically have male composers first and foremost as the contextual reference. Plus we can't wholly divide out the emphasis in the 19th Century on industry and the emphasis in the 20th Century on war, whichever angle was taken on the latter, for each was defined ostensibly in male terms. Those were fundamental to the broad frameworks.

[Padraig]

Did anyone, apart from jean, actually listen to the programme?

Yes, I did, doversoul. I rarely miss EMS. Sorry I have nothing profound, controversial or interesting to say other than that I usually enjoy the programme, as I did this one.

[Lat-Literal]

Did anyone, apart from jean, actually listen to the programme?

Never mind. All these posts are terribly interesting. It will keep me busy all evening to read through and think about them.

However, if you happen to have 58 minutes to spare, do listen to the programme. It has some rarely heard (by me, that is) works.

Sorry, doversoul.

Yours is the key post but I started typing before you had posted it so I am posting it again here!

[doversoul1]

Here’s a concert that has two cantatas about women, composed by a woman and sung by a woman.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06mdyjg

Most enjoyable.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

However, if you happen to have 58 minutes to spare, do listen to the programme. It has some rarely heard (by me, that is) works.

Mostly new to me, too, dovers - I'd only heard the Strozzi songs before - and all worth hearing and re-hearing (generally good performances, too). I was less impressed by the commentary on the Music - lazy recyclings of rumours of "bitchiness" (the word was used by Lucy Skeaping) and "catfights" in Convents, and not very much discussion of how Music worked in them (it would have been nice, too, to hear the Vesper settings as the composer would have heard them, rather than/in addition to the first published versions with male singers). And, rather than rehearse stereotyped "jealousies" between nuns within the Convents, why not give us information about how Cozzolani defended the very right for her nuns to practise (and compose) Music in the face of hostility from the (male) leaders of the Church, who wanted to restrict them to the most basic plainchant singing? Very disappointed at the missed opportunities here.

And, for what it's worth, I find the terms "masculine" and "feminine" at best useless (and, indeed, quaintly old-fashioned) in discussing aesthetic matters, and the Music in this programme demonstrates why: on a "blind" hearing, there is nothing at all "feminine" (nor, for that matter, "masculine") about any of the works we heard. Indeed, evenwith the blindfold removed, I defy anyone to demonstrate how the use of the Musical materials reveals that the composers were women. (But then, I don't hear "thrusting" "masculine" climaxes in Simpson's Music, either - merely the determination of a composer both to pursue a Musical career in spite of family opposition, and to write the Music he was convinced needed to be written. Characteristics exemplified in the work of Elisabeth Lutyens, too - about the only thing they have in common. And Simpson's gorgeous, "focussed meandering" slow movements - quite unique to this composer, and owing nothing to testosterone.)

[doversoul1]

… and what did you think of Chiara Margarita Cozzolani’s works?

ff
If you are still reading this thread, do you think you could move, say from #27 to the Talking About Music Board with reference to this thread? I think the discussion deserves a wider audience.

[french frank]

… and what did you think of Chiara Margarita Cozzolani’s works?

ff
If you are still reading this thread, do you think you could move, say from #27 to the Talking About Music Board with reference to this thread? I think the discussion deserves a wider audience.

Posts removed to On women and composing on Talking About Music

[ahinton]

… and what did you think of Chiara Margarita Cozzolani’s works?

ff
If you are still reading this thread, do you think you could move, say from #27 to the Talking About Music Board with reference to this thread? I think the discussion deserves a wider audience.

I see that this has just now happened.

FF - have you moved all of the posts in this thread to the new one, including those that are still here? - or are you in the process of working on it? - if you don't mind my asking...