Women Musicians and Composers in 17th-century Italy: EMS 15 November

[doversoul1]

Convent, Court and Salon.

Lucie Skeaping is joined by Deborah Roberts, director of the Brighton Early Music Festival Consort of Voices, to talk about the role of women musicians and composers in 17th-century Italian musical life. Amongst these was Chiara Margarita Cozzolani whose double-choir setting of the Vespers we'll hear today in this concert, recorded at the festival earlier this month

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06p4r1h

[french frank]

Convent, Court and Salon.

Lucie Skeaping is joined by Deborah Roberts, director of the Brighton Early Music Festival Consort of Voices, to talk about the role of women musicians and composers in 17th-century Italian musical life. Amongst these was Chiara Margarita Cozzolani whose double-choir setting of the Vespers we'll hear today in this concert, recorded at the festival earlier this month
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06p4r1h

I get the feeling that things were better for women composers at that time than now, even if they didn't achieve the wide reputation that men did. Would you say so, dover?

[doversoul1]

I get the feeling that things were better for women composers at that time than now, even if they didn't achieve the wide reputation that men did. Would you say so, dover?

I suppose things were better in that as far as we know, more or less all women composers in the Baroque era came from the ‘right’ background: privileged, well-off and often musical. And well connected in the first place. Music, which probably included some level of composition, was a standard accomplishment for young women in that class. As such, I imagine people weren’t surprised that some women could compose very well. We don’t know if some of those women would have taken up the grueling journeys around Europe in order to spread their names wider as their male counterpart did (or had to do) if they’d had a chance.

I don't agree with the argument that women composers in history were prevented from becoming great composers only because they were women. It’s always more instantly interesting to put things in modern perspectives but we should remember that the world and the perceptions of women themselves were very different then. We should also remember that in those days, composer was a fairly ordinary occupation/job unlike today.

[ahinton]

I get the feeling that things were better for women composers at that time than now, even if they didn't achieve the wide reputation that men did. Would you say so, dover?

Well, I wouldn't say so, although there's massive room for improvement; there's almost certainly more availability of music by women today than was once the case - and probably more music by women as well.

[jean]

But at that time there was music by women available that's only now being rediscovered.

[doversoul1]

Well, I wouldn't say so, although there's massive room for improvement; there's almost certainly more availability of music by women today than was once the case - and probably more music by women as well.

On the World Women’s Day’s (or was it Week?) Through the Night, there were at least two works (as I remember) that were composed by nuns. Catriona Yong said ‘music was needed for their daily worship and other occasions, and only way to have music was to compose it themselves,’ or something to that effect.

What this means is that we don’t know how many nuns composed music throughout Europe. Composing music was probably not all that much different from baking daily bread. The same could be said about domestic use; many women could have composed for their household entertainment along with arranging flowers and preparing food. Like bread and flowers, there was no reason to want to preserve the music that had served its purpose.

Male composers needed to establish their status by publishing their works. The women composers we know today are probably a few exceptions who, for whatever the reasons, published their works. We don’t know whether women wanted to but couldn’t or they didn’t see the need of it. I guess it’s the latter.

[ahinton]

But at that time there was music by women available that's only now being rediscovered.

Indeed - but by "available" I men available for others to listen to, both in live performances and in broadcasts and recordings. Yes, much has been rediscovered in recent decades and, as I suggested, there's probably rather more of it being produced during those decades of rediscovery than was once the case - one has only to think of the work of Smyth, (Lili) Boulanger, Bacewicz and Maconchy to recognise a series of rich seams of music by women. That said, you'd never know that any of their work had been written by women unless you were told or had read it beforehand; there's no evidence as yet that there is such a thing as "women's music" in the sense of it being recognisable as such merely by listening to it.

[Serial_Apologist]

Indeed - but by "available" I men available for others to listen to, both in live performances and in broadcasts and recordings. Yes, much has been rediscovered in recent decades and, as I suggested, there's probably rather more of it being produced during those decades of rediscovery than was once the case - one has only to think of the work of Smyth, (Lili) Boulanger, Bacewicz and Maconchy to recognise a series of rich seams of music by women. That said, you'd never know that any of their work had been written by women unless you were told or had read it beforehand; there's no evidence as yet that there is such a thing as "women's music" in the sense of it being recognisable as such merely by listening to it.

I wonder if that's really true, or whether women felt they had to compose masculine-sounding music in order to be accepted as bona fide composers? I cannot imagine a woman composer of today composing for example much of Robert Simpson's music, with all that thrusting sense of domination over conquerable forces, ahem!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

On the World Women’s Day’s (or was it Week?) Through the Night, there were at least two works (as I remember) that were composed by nuns. Catriona Yong said ‘music was needed for their daily worship and other occasions, and only way to have music was to compose it themselves,’ or something to that effect.
What this means is that we don’t know how many nuns composed music throughout Europe. Composing music was probably not all that much different from baking daily bread. The same could be said about domestic use; many women could have composed for their household entertainment along with arranging flowers and preparing food. Like bread and flowers, there was no reason to want to preserve the music that had served its purpose.
Male composers needed to establish their status by publishing their works. The women composers we know today are probably a few exceptions who, for whatever the reasons, published their works. We don’t know whether women wanted to but couldn’t or they didn’t see the need of it. I guess it’s the latter.

We need to bear in mind the Church's change in attitude towards women in the (IIRC) twelfth Century - whereas before this, gifted Nuns were encouraged to create religious Music and Art, thereafter, their creativity and influence within Church hierarchy was greatly curtailed. So, whilst we have a (comparatively speaking) rich input of women's Music and writing on Music from Egeria in the 4th Century, through Hroswitha of Gandersheim in the 10th to Hildegard of Bingen in the 11th - thereafter, with the growth of the Cult of Mary, their influence and "profile" recedes.

There is also the matter of training as a composer in the Mediaeval and Renaissance Church - the "scientific" foundations of what we now call "Species Harmony" requires years of dedicated study and rigorous training - study and training denied to women. There are parallels here with Art training - and, again, we see the "exceptions" (women whose work and names have come down to us) from families where there are professional Musicians. To acquire skills from outside such families was practically (and I use the word literally here) impossible. Yes - there probably were "hobbyist" women composers before the Nineteenth Century, just as there were non-professional needlepointers, laceworkers and paper sculptresses; but this sort of craftspersonship has not (yet) been afforded the respect and scholarly attention that it might deserve.

[doversoul1]

ferneyhoughgeliebte
Many thanks for your most informed and interesting post. I was largely thinking about "hobbyist" women composers (in varying skills) in domestic setting. I imagine some of these women were probably as good as many male jobbing composers whose music we are (I am, I mean) just beginning to hear.

But of course church may have been a very different matter. So, how was the music in convent provided? Were copies of music composed by men brought in to be performed? From what the guest of the programme said, it sounded as if women were quite actively composing in convent in the 17 century Italy.

Apart from the discussion, I thought the music on this programme was very good.

[jean]

Deborah Roberts did suggest that much of the music sung in religious houses for women at this period would have been composed by the nuns themselves - and that a woman who was not from a wealthy family was well advised to get herself a thorough grounding in the necessary theory in order to have something to offer insted of the substantial 'dowry' she would otherwise be required to pay.

[ahinton]

I wonder if that's really true, or whether women felt they had to compose masculine-sounding music in order to be accepted as bona fide composers? I cannot imagine a woman composer of today composing for example much of Robert Simpson's music, with all that thrusting sense of domination over conquerable forces, ahem!

Why not? And what kind of music might you have expectd her to compose instead? I really don't believe in this notion of "masculine-sounding music" and cannot perceive in what its origins might be or how one might set about trying to identify it as such! I also think that you do Robert Simpson a disservice!

[Serial_Apologist]

Why not? And what kind of music might you have expectd her to compose instead? I really don't believe in this notion of "masculine-sounding music" and cannot perceive in what its origins might be or how one might set about trying to identify it as such! I also think that you do Robert Simpson a disservice!

There is not question at all that there is a yin and a yang to be given expression in life and society in general, and that the artistic, of which the musical is a part, is where this is to be found. In the 1970s feminists were very much to the fore in pointing this out, citing Margaret Thatcher as a prime example of women having to act like men to be represented in capitalism's highest echelons of power. By dint of how power exercises influence down the chain this would likewise be reflected in all realms of control, individual and collective, by virtue of the workings of trickle-down. Some indeed argued with some justification that the distribution of labour under capitalist and pre-capitalist sociopolitical structures being inimical to women's full social participation necessitated social change to make this possible, and that feminists should therefore be socialists or at least anti-capitalists.

While there is much merit in this argument it is not imv necessary to pose the solution in such maximalist or ultimatistic terms, because the issue of challenging power has already made manifest alternative forms of expression arising from the struggle, from suffragism right through to the "soft power" of personal expression including in the artistic and musical realms, though precious little of this has made its way into widespread recognition without needing to manifest itself in traditionally masculine demonstrations of power, i.e. not essentially in forms that are egalitarian and co-operational, both in terms of formal and, if you like, operational procedures challenging of the ruling orders, which have for this reason been subject to the usual chauvinistic ridicule - and I'm sure the intelligent people on here are familiar enough with all this not to need citations.

There are however positive examples of what might call yin expression, not through the stereotypes of pink etc that exaggerate expressive and behavioural differences, but, in the case of music, of composers whose music has gone some way towards challenging the "mastery over intransigeant materials" anti-naturalistic imagery presented in so much past musical criticism that sees musical expression in terms of reaching goals - the Eurocentric ideal of the happy ending to the story which would be no story without its protagonists (first subject, second subject, development, key conflict, return to home key or in the case of Nielsen some hoped for new land that still requires fighting subjective and objective demons to attain) overcoming all manner of obstructions. Among males Debussy was perhaps one of the first to express this non-masculine side of himself, which is as much there as the masculine side exists in most women and seen as epitomising all that is heroic and best expressed in war, or in caring for its victims, a never-ending vicious circle of ideological self-positioning if ever there was!).

But since Debussy this aspect of the musical imagination has been less recognised or respected, I think, and in consequence it has taken a solitary genius to adumbrate one sole creative perspective on it, which, notwithstanding the sheer breadth of Debussy's expressive and formal means, was obviously not enough set against the masculine models perpetually promulgated as ideals for following to be a role model. One has had to go outwith the western concert music tradition to find alternatives, especially jazz, and one might cite Miles Davis's expression of this feminine side (in some of the best of his music, eg his ballads interpretations, at least, if not his personal treatment of women!!!) as well as a player such as Stan Getz. One always has to be critically mindful of the dangers of over-sweetening conventions of association involved as a consequence of the limited alternative models on offer, but jazz may be leading the way (Trish Clowes being a fine exemplar of the sort of idiomatic approach I would advocate while having her head firmly screwed on when it comes to promotional realities) where world musics have provided solutions by adaptation too easily compromised by commercialisation.

[ahinton]

@ S_A:
I won't quote your post in extenso here, not because it's not interesting - indeed, it's most interesting - but just for space-saving reasons.

The issue that I continue to have however (and why jut Debussy, by the way - what about Fauré?) is that, whatever the arguments might be along the lines that you have presented so congently above, it remains a fact that it is, as I've already pointed out, impossible to guarantee being able to identify the gender of a composer merely by listening to examples of his/her music and this, at least to my mind, undermines the very notions of "masculine-sounding" and "feminine-sounding" music. I'm not sure what Thea Musgrave, Nicola LeFanu or other living women composers would think about this but consider another one, Sally Beamish, who recently gave serious if not quite unequivocal support to the contention that some of J.S. Bach's well-known works were actually composed by his second wife; now leaving aside what strikes me as the absurdity of such an assertion, would anyone prepared to believe in it be able to say with certainty that those works were distinguishable from others of whom J. S. Bach's authoriship is not in doubt on the grounds of identifiable "femininity" of music expression therein?

[Serial_Apologist]

@ S_A:
I won't quote your post in extenso here, not because it's not interesting - indeed, it's most interesting - but just for space-saving reasons.

The issue that I continue to have however (and why jut Debussy, by the way - what about Fauré?) is that, whatever the arguments might be along the lines that you have presented so congently above, it remains a fact that it is, as I've already pointed out, impossible to guarantee being able to identify the gender of a composer merely by listening to examples of his/her music and this, at least to my mind, undermines the very notions of "masculine-sounding" and "feminine-sounding" music. I'm not sure what Thea Musgrave, Nicola LeFanu or other living women composers would think about this but consider another one, Sally Beamish, who recently gave serious if not quite unequivocal support to the contention that some of J.S. Bach's well-known works were actually composed by his second wife; now leaving aside what strikes me as the absurdity of such an assertion, would anyone prepared to believe in it be able to say with certainty that those works were distinguishable from others of whom J. S. Bach's authoriship is not in doubt on the grounds of identifiable "femininity" of music expression therein?

I agree with you on Faure.

I would say to that that insufficient attention has thus far been paid, either to this subject, or to considering any manifestations of Yin in music of the Western canon to have either constituted or contributed to their greatness, for one yet to be able to judge the sex or gender of the composer by its sound. There just isn't enough of the stuff around to make that kind of judgement, especially when women have subconsciously conformed to expectations as to what sort of music they compose, or should be composing, and the underpinning models on offer.

This was one of the arguments, among others to do with women's creative marginalisation in critical and historical accounts of their place in the music, put forward by some feminists in jazz and particularly, post-punk rock music at the end of the 1970s and start of the 'eighties: namely, that women should set up their own women-only bands and music co-operatives if necessary*. In so doing, some, such as The Slits and The Guest Stars, were able to formulate non-male-determined popular genres with characteristics distinct from the male ones with their emphasis on thrusting display and misogynistic attitudes towards women. With these selfsame attitudes at play in the world of classical music, albeit in subtler and more covert ways, it is not impossible, I would argue, to envisage different sets of aesthetics arising from women freed to determine their own directions. With the capacity for music as a whole unshackled from commercial desiderata or reactionary political pressures to carry on evolving apparent for all to see, the classical world, like that of jazz, offers conditions more propitious to the realisation of such aims than rock or pop music, with their proneness to commercial dumbing down, so depressingly evident in the way in which The Spice Girls were presented as leading representatives of "girl power".

*I've just remembered that Elizabeth Lutyens came to realise this as long ago as in the early 1930s, and took actual steps to make sure women musicians suffered less discrimination and marginalisation, and got greater prominence in "serious" music. Ms Lutyens is an interesting putative example of someone who might be seen as putting modernist principles in serial music by-passing goal-signifying procedures such as the cadence into feminine effect. It is interesting and maybe not coincidental that a woman composer should have been at the forefront of modernism's advocacy in its early days in Britain. In her embrace of abstraction she was in line with Barbara Hepworth's achievements in the field of sculpture.

This is not to say that a genuine expression of the feminine in music automatically follows a modernist path; rather, it is to recognise that the fact that this was the option taken up by Ms Lutyens and Elisabeth Machonchy at the time they did was not without significance.