The Lute and the Harpsichord: EMS 25 October

[doversoul1]

Sophie Yates is joined by lutenist Benjamin Narvey to discuss the relationship between the lute and harpsichord in 17th-century France. Music by Chambonnières, d'Anglebert, Louis Couperin and François Couperin.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06k9f28

Sounds good.

[Richard Tarleton]

Interesting programme. And I do like Sophie Yates Apart from de Visée I knew next to nothing about the French lute school under discussion. I can't say I was greatly inspired by the lute pieces played. Anyway we had a lot more answers to our earlier discussion here about the decline of the lute (and theorbo), at least in France. It clearly survived a while longer in Germany thanks to Weiss. It was the harpsichord what dunnit. But as a lutenist you weren't going to hear him admit the biggest problem: with all those different tunings, tied gut frets, etc. etc., the thing was impossible for all but a few to tune, let alone play

The opening bars of that Froberger tombeau she played just like those of Weiss's great Tombeau sur la Mort de M:Cajetan Baron dHartig, played here by Robert Barto.

[ardcarp]

I very much enjoyed this, and found Benjamin N. to be a most engaging speaker as well as player! I don't think (though I may have missed it) the role of lute as continuo instrument was mentioned...not really the thrust of the programme. But for the early Baroque repertory, it is a singer's dream to have lute plus chamber organ continuo; nothing noisy to strive against!

I can't say I was greatly inspired by the lute pieces played.

Was it the apparent lack of rhythm and excess of ornamentation that bothered you, RT? It goes with the territory for the French stuff. (Note use of technical language...)

[Richard Tarleton]

I very much enjoyed this, and found Benjamin N. to be a most engaging speaker as well as player! I don't think (though I may have missed it) the role of lute as continuo instrument was mentioned...not really the thrust of the programme. But for the early Baroque repertory, it is a singer's dream to have lute plus chamber organ continuo; nothing noisy to strive against!

By coincidence I was listening to theorbo plus harpsichord live in an Armonico Consort concert only the other night - see here - Robin Jeffrey doubling on theorbo and a 5-course baroque guitar. The theorbo was very quiet in the mix (in the St David's Hall acoustic) - though more forwardly balanced on their recording, which I bought on the way out. I thought (without listening again) he said something in the EMS programme about lutes/theorbos in pairs as continuo instruments (?), but that they fell out of fashion for being too quiet....

Was it the apparent lack of rhythm and excess of ornamentation that bothered you, RT? It goes with the territory for the French stuff. (Note use of technical language...)

I think that was probably it. My lute CD collection contains lots of English, German, Italian and even a disc of Swedish lute music (performed by Jakob Lindberg) but virtually no French apart from de Visée. A blind spot, I need to get to know it better.

[ardcarp]

but that they fell out of fashion for being too quiet....

Well, they've fallen heavily back in again in recent years. One can hardly contemplate a performance of Orfeo or L'Incoronazione (or even Monteberdi's Vespers) without one....or several. But they have also crept into later Baroque continuo work, which I think is great.

[vinteuil]

My lute CD collection contains lots of English, German, Italian and even a disc of Swedish lute music (performed by Jakob Lindberg) but virtually no French apart from de Visée. A blind spot, I need to get to know it better.

... o Richard, Richard! Not even the great Hopkinson Smith - his discs of Ennemond ('Vieux') Gaultier and Denis Gaultier?

.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000051W4W

.

http://www.amazon.fr/dp/B000026DB7

[Richard Tarleton]

Well, they've fallen heavily back in again in recent years. One can hardly contemplate a performance of Orfeo or L'Incoronazione (or even Monteberdi's Vespers) without one....or several. But they have also crept into later Baroque continuo work, which I think is great.

Indeed! I remember the JEG Vespers at the Proms 2 or 3 years back - no fewer than 3 theorboes marching on stage! There is something very special about the sound of the baroque lute and theorbo - those diapasons - I first heard a live baroque lute in the Holywell Music Room, about 46 years ago - the late Eugen Dombois, playing Bach.

[Richard Tarleton]

... o Richard, Richard! Not even the great Hopkinson Smith - his discs of Ennemond ('Vieux') Gaultier and Denis Gaultier?

.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000051W4W

.
http://www.amazon.fr/dp/B000026DB7

I'll try to put that right, v, thank you for the tips. The first appears to be currently unavailable at least from Amazon, the second, erm, €45 from French Amazon....I'll hunt about.

I do of course have Hopkinson Smith playing Dowland, and a marvellous CD of him playing Mudarra's 1546 Tres libros de musica en cifras para vihuela, which is currently available. I play some of the Mudarra pieces on the guitar, in the transcriptions by Emilio Pujol, who was...one of Hopkinson Smith's teachers. His other great teacher was Eugen Dombois, whom I saw a long time ago, see previous post. I remember HS was a guest on....was it the Early Music Show, a few years back?

The lute repertoire is so vast it's a constant voyage of discovery. So far, as far as France is concerned, I've not got beyond the late 16th-very early 17th centuries and hearty village dances of the Branles and Basses dances variety.

[Mattbod]

I have just listened to this on iplayer catch up or tried to. They played barely 40 seconds of each piece. Can anyone explain this nonsense?

[Richard Tarleton]

I have just listened to this on iplayer catch up or tried to. They played barely 40 seconds of each piece. Can anyone explain this nonsense?

I suppose it's simply a choice between fewer pieces or a longer programme?

[doversoul1]

I have just listened to this on iplayer catch up or tried to. They played barely 40 seconds of each piece. Can anyone explain this nonsense?

I’ve just played it and the first piece lasted some 3 minuts.

[Mattbod]

I went through the programme's webpage. Maybe i got the podcast instead of the full programme. I was only 30 mins long :/

[ardcarp]

You were short-changed then.