Monteverdi in Mantua: The Genius of the Vespers

[kernelbogey]

Blimey, someone who actually LIKES the form of television.
I never thought I would find that in here

I have all the conviction of one who thinks he's been saved - or that stopping smoking/drinking/taking sugar is the best thing he's ever done !

To explain: I bought my first television in 23 years in the January sales. The 23 years were preceded by 18 years with one, while kids grew up (and me too).

[Simon Biazeck]

Very enjoyable, and it certainly brought back memories of singing the tenor echo duets with Gerald English over twenty years ago!

I did feel a little shortchanged that there was no discussion of the function, albeit speculative, of this masterpiece in the context of the liturgy; Marian Vespers or any other Lady Saint. Clearly it was a publishing opportunity for Monteverdi, designed to promote his genius, and probably not intended to be rendered complete and entire in a church service, but that in itself is very interesting. The function of the various solo motets is a problem for the liturgy too, and the choice of psalm and Mag. antiphons is not specified in the Vincenti edition. Also, the pitch of the mvts notated in chiavette (high clefs) - e.g. Magnificat - implies transposition downwards of at least a perfect forth. Even with such fine singers, they did seem a little under strain. Perhaps that was deemed a step too far for the remit of this programme, but they did actually talk about authentic performance practice: that of singing from part books.

No discussion, perhaps deliberately, of the fact that IF any of it was sung in church, women would most certainly NOT have been present. Personally, I am in favour of anyone singing it now and The Sixteen seem the most likely candidates for this particular presenter, but if one is talking about historical matters, why not paint the full picture?

[Old Grumpy]

No discussion, perhaps deliberately, of the fact that IF any of it was sung in church, women would most certainly NOT have been present. Personally, I am in favour of anyone singing it now and The Sixteen seem the most likely candidates for this particular presenter, but if one is talking about historical matters, why not paint the full picture?

A programme aimed at an interested, but inexpert (me included), audience, perhaps?

OG

[Serial_Apologist]

A programme aimed at an interested, but inexpert (me included), audience, perhaps?

OG

And not always v helpful from that pov. The reference (or two) to "operatic conventions", querying their appropriateness in sacred music, led me to wonder what they were. Some kind of explanation might have helped. Surely opera had not had time to acquire conventions of any kind in 1610?

[Old Grumpy]

And not always v helpful from that pov. The reference (or two) to "operatic conventions", querying their appropriateness in sacred music, led me to wonder what they were. Some kind of explanation might have helped. Surely opera had not had time to acquire conventions of any kind in 1610?

Fair point, S_A. One hour is not much time to deal with everything. Perhaps a series is in order.

OG

[Simon Biazeck]

A programme aimed at an interested, but inexpert (me included), audience, perhaps?

OG

Well, I don't know! Only you can answer that. Knowing little about art, I would be happy to have the classical references and allegories in a painting by Holbein, Titain or Artemisia Gentlileschi explained to me.

I can see a line being drawn at complex musicology, but when the work in question has a number of interesting social and cultural aspects to it, I would like to hear what the experts have to say. Otherwise it might seem like a cynical exercise in self promotion and branding... oh, hang on, one could view the first edition as that too. Perhaps not.

Still, great to see it, and as stated, I enjoyed it. I just thought it could be a little more rounded. I'm glad you enjoyed it!

[kernelbogey]

[...] I can see a line being drawn at complex musicology, but when the work in question has a number of interesting social and cultural aspects to it, I would like to hear what the experts have to say[...]

Problem is, they need pretty pictures to draw in viewers to this kind of programme. Too much rostrum work on crumbling MSS, and they'd not be able to justify the budget; so they need dramatic shots of SRB wandering through palazzi. I was rather shocked by the scene in which we were shown the techies - amazed at how big a crew they had taken out to Mantua etc; then there's 16 singers, Harry..... I suspect it boils down to money.

Nonetheless I agree with you and OG that there's a series to be made there. I've always been fascinated by the overlap between the Vespers and CM's operas.

[Roehre]

.... I've always been fascinated by the overlap between the Vespers and CM's operas.

And to see develop his Madrigals from motets (Madrigali I, p.1590) to operatic scenes/mini-operas (Madrigali VIII: Combattimento di Tancredi et Clorinda, e.g.) or the posthumously published 9th book.

[Simon Biazeck]

Problem is, they need pretty pictures to draw in viewers to this kind of programme. Too much rostrum work on crumbling MSS, and they'd not be able to justify the budget; so they need dramatic shots of SRB wandering through palazzi. I was rather shocked by the scene in which we were shown the techies - amazed at how big a crew they had taken out to Mantua etc; then there's 16 singers, Harry..... I suspect it boils down to money.

Nonetheless I agree with you and OG that there's a series to be made there. I've always been fascinated by the overlap between the Vespers and CM's operas.

I didn't do a head count, but I got the impression it was more than 16 singers! I like the postcard shots, but being rather odd, I am very excited about the musicological aspects too. It must have been an exciting project for the performers and they spoke well, especially the tenor, Mark Dobell (the echo in the duet) who is also a fine Classicist.

Alas, I don't think Simon Russell Beale is as keen on opera, so I wouldn't hold your breath for a bigger series. Pappano touched on Monteverdi in his Opera Italia series a couple of years ago, I think. He would be the one to do it, but I doubt it will happen. A pity!

[MrGongGong]

Problem is, they need pretty pictures to draw in viewers to this kind of programme.

"Problem" ?
That's what TV does

I hear that there's this wonderful invention called the "wireless" for people who don't like to look at stuff

I loved it (by the way)
Places i've never been to and after working on Orfeo earlier this year it was great to return to that soundworld.

[kernelbogey]

"Problem" ?
That's what TV does

GG, that was a response to SB's desire for a more musicological programme.
I'm saying they are unlikely to do that and give up the pretty pix.
I think you and I are in agreement here...!
BW, kb

[MrGongGong]

GG, that was a response to SB's desire for a more musicological programme.
I'm saying they are unlikely to do that and give up the pretty pix.
I think you and I are in agreement here...!
BW, kb

[doversoul1]

It was a good programme but maybe because I am not used to watching television, I found it quite difficult to follow the two strands in the programme simultaneously: the composer’s life and the Vespers. I thought SRB singing with Harry Christopher and the tenor was the best bit. Real flesh and blood singing.

I was surprised to hear the Italian musicologist talking about a diva and stage sets when referring to L'Orfeo. I didn’t think L’Orfeo was an opera in that sense. Or was she talking about Poppea or other later works?

Roehre

And to see develop his Madrigals from motets (Madrigali I, p.1590) to operatic scenes/mini-operas (Madrigali VIII: Combattimento di Tancredi et Clorinda, e.g.) or the posthumously published 9th book.

…and like these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GigIpxnPTs

Pianto della Madonna et autres motets –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrqO_ipHPMM

Il quarto libro dei madrigali, à 5 voci

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvEVCbubLZs

Il sesto libro dei madrigal

[Roehre]

..…and like these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GigIpxnPTs

Pianto della Madonna et autres motets –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrqO_ipHPMM

Il quarto libro dei madrigali, à 5 voci

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvEVCbubLZs

Il sesto libro dei madrigal

And like those

[Stanley Stewart]

I derived so much pleasure from this programme which also prompted me to look further afield, bringing the partnership of Harry Christophers and Simon Russell Beale into a wider perspective in my DVD compilations. Their low-key but intense yet relaxed interactivity also projects manifold dividends.

Widescreen TV and a sluggish but definite improvement in recording techniques also enhance our world-wide reputation in the field of documentary production. A running time of 59 mins told us much about 20 years of service/servitude and Monteverdi's quest to escape from the petty restrictions of the Conzaga Court, although this was sidelined for me by the need to focus on the discussion and rehearsal extracts of the 1610 Vespers, particularly the spatial discoveries in the famous 'echo effect' by the composer. I transferred the programme to DVD, adding a complete performance of the Vespers at PROMS 2010, (Prom 75, 10 Sept, BBC4;) English Baroque Soloists, His Majestys Sagbutts and Cornetts/Sir John Eliot Gardiner. All the immense ritual of a theatrical work with the intensity of the Confessional, vivid at the cavernous RAH.

Rummaging my off-air videos, I concluded that the first liaison between Messrs Christophers and Beale may have been their exploration of the 300 year history behind the sacred work, Allegri's Miserere, followed by a performance by the Sixteen in this 30 mins documentary. I recorded it on BBC 4, in 2010, but feel this may have been a repeat transmission from 2005/6.

The 60 mins format may have been sanctioned for the same team to produce God's Composer - Victoria, (2011). Again, sumptuous settings for the composition of the great works of the Renaissance and the Spanish golden age; spiritual aspirations cheek by jowl with delight in the physical world, Of course, The Magnificat took centre stage.

Altogether, an ideal themed programme on two DVD's.