Secret Knowledge: Stradivarius and Me

**Richard Tarleton** · 15-07-13, 19:28

Thanks for the heads-up IGI. Should be fascinating. I usually pop in to see the Messiah when in Oxford - the Schroedinger's Cat of violins. Nice clip, I wish CB-H would stick to serious presentation rather than the pre-0900 tweeting frenzy. How did others get on with the Telegraph test posted by mercia? - pleased to say I passed

, well it was obvious really.....

**LeMartinPecheur** · 15-07-13, 19:47

May I crave indulgence to post a query which I trust isn't too OT?

My wife's family own what AFAIK is a pretty common-or-garden C19 violin, valued at a few hundred pounds at most. What links it to this thread is that inside its body, visible through the f-holes, is a label claiming it to be a Strad. Said label bears a very decent resemblance to genuine Strad labels judging by examples I've seen in books, though I haven't seen the exact original reproduced (assuming there is one?

).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not still hoping that the label somehow makes it genuine: it's my daytime occupation as a trading standards officer that gives me an interest in it as an elderly example of what today we call 'counterfeiting'.

Does anyone know how common such fraudulent mislabelling of violins was? When did it start? Were any particular firms/ towns/ countries involved? Is it really likely to have misled people? This of course assumes that the label was put on by the maker in the days before consumer protection laws, though I guess there is the possibility that it was put on by a crook looking to make a one-off big profit, either by sale or pawn(?).

Any info most gratefully received!

**pastoralguy** · 15-07-13, 20:55

Hi LeMartin. Oh yes, it was a HUGE problem in the 'olden times'. For any violinist who has an eye for the instrument itself they can become as recognisable as cars, stamps or horses. (To name but three obsessions).

Switching labels is a problem that has been around almost as long as instruments have been traded. It's not just Strads but other makers that dealers or vendors have swapped labels in order to create a false impression about instruments. And it's not just the bottom of the market where such things happen. (Google Peter Biddulph to read a real horror story of dirty dealings at the high end of the market). And it's not the first time that an extremely knowledgeable dealer has been fooled by mis-practice.

When I used to teach the fiddle I regularly had children with £300 fiddles that had 'Antonio Straivarius' labels in them! Some parents actually believed it.

I'll write more later once I've done my chores!

**Tony Halstead** · 15-07-13, 21:05

Are we perhaps being too literal here?
Surely those labels inside mass-produced 'factory violins' were merely saying that they were MODELLED on a Stradivari instrument...?

**pastoralguy** · 15-07-13, 21:12

Originally posted by waldhorn View Post

Are we perhaps being too literal here?
Surely those labels inside mass-produced 'factory violins' were merely saying that they were MODELLED on a Stradivari instrument...?

Not so much...

**LeMartinPecheur** · 15-07-13, 22:29

Originally posted by pastoralguy View Post

Hi LeMartin. Oh yes, it was a HUGE problem in the 'olden times'. For any violinist who has an eye for the instrument itself they can become as recognisable as cars, stamps or horses. (To name but three obsessions).

Switching labels is a problem that has been around almost as long as instruments have been traded. It's not just Strads but other makers that dealers or vendors have swapped labels in order to create a false impression about instruments. And it's not just the bottom of the market where such things happen. (Google Peter Biddulph to read a real horror story of dirty dealings at the high end of the market). And it's not the first time that an extremely knowledgeable dealer has been fooled by mis-practice.

When I used to teach the fiddle I regularly had children with £300 fiddles that had 'Antonio Straivarius' labels in them! Some parents actually believed it.

I'll write more later once I've done my chores!

pastoralguy: thanks for your response, and for the highlighting of Mr Biddulph.

Here http://vanorabennett.com/blog/when-i...-not-a-fiddle/ for others is a summary of that case plus a few more interesting ones. [I was equally oblivious to the link with the former(?) Biddulph CD label, another - presumably more solid - business of the same gentleman.]

**Il Grande Inquisitor** · 15-07-13, 22:37

Originally posted by Richard Tarleton View Post

I wish CB-H would stick to serious presentation rather than the pre-0900 tweeting frenzy.

I don't think we should solely judge presenters by their Breakfast efforts, where they are working to a different kind of presentational formula. As the programme this evening demonstrated, CB-H is a thoughtful presenter and an able musician. Her presentation of the Chamber Proms at Cadogan Hall last season was excellent, as is her championing of R3's New Generation Artists.

**pastoralguy** · 16-07-13, 00:00

Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Post

pastoralguy: thanks for your response, and for the highlighting of Mr Biddulph.

Here http://vanorabennett.com/blog/when-i...-not-a-fiddle/ for others is a summary of that case plus a few more interesting ones. [I was equally oblivious to the link with the former(?) Biddulph CD label, another - presumably more solid - business of the same gentleman.]

Thank you for that link. Very interesting stuff. Over the years, The Strad magazine has had many, many stories of dirty dealings in the string instrument trade. One I remember recounted a very fine player who could, of course, make a cheap fiddle sound terrific, thus apparently increasing the value!

Another point regarding Strads is that there are instruments from the 'workshop' of Stradivarius. The great man would have overseen these instruments but not actually built them. He was, however, a very demanding master and would think nothing of smashing an apprentices instrument that did not meet his exacting standards. Thus any such instrument is a very fine fiddle although it wasn't made by Straduvarius.

**Richard Tarleton** · 16-07-13, 09:00

Lovely programme.

Not long ago I picked up a pristine copy of "Stradivarius" by Tony Faber in a second hand shop - an excellent read, telling the stories of 5 violins (including the Viotti and the Messiah, featured in the programme) as well as the Davidoff cello (J du Pré, Yo-Yo Ma).

**ferneyhoughgeliebte** · 16-07-13, 09:38

Originally posted by Il Grande Inquisitor View Post

I don't think we should solely judge presenters by their Breakfast efforts, where they are working to a different kind of presentational formula. As the programme this evening demonstrated, CB-H is a thoughtful presenter and an able musician. Her presentation of the Chamber Proms at Cadogan Hall last season was excellent, as is her championing of R3's New Generation Artists.

Very good points, IGI; I've made similar comments about SM-P.

That anyone would imagine that this "presentational formula" might attract huge numbers of listeners (and, for that matter, that the presenters themselves consent to demean their own and their listeners' intelligence in this way - no salary can be that good, surely?) I find a very sad state of affairs.

**Gordon** · 16-07-13, 12:43

Lovely programme - wth real music - OK, it did finish with Doddy! A bit more from the maker on how it's done would have been good.

Coincidentally I was at a Tasmin Little recital last weekend and she played the "Regent" Strad of 1708 and wonderful it sounded too, rich, very warm but then it's also due to the player. Sadly she announced that she had to give it back to the collection it was loaned from and so this was it's last outing - with her at least. These instruments were meant to be played rather than kept in cupboards but then they do age I suppose and it's a balance between conservation and allowing the instrument to do what it was made to do. How come the Messiah wasn't played much if at all - good for us I suppose to see its pristine state but what a shame?

Can any expert out there describe what is actually authentic in these surviving instruments; do they not get mended and so on and haven't they now got different strings, higher tension, chin supports etc? How does this affect tone?

CB-H was an engaging presenter and clearly involved with the subject, and not a single Tweet invitation!! Must go to Oxford, just up the road so no excuse!!

PS the Little programme was: a Bach sonata [with keyboard not solo], Brahms A major and then a sonata by Lekeu - a pupil of Franck - never heard of him but very engaging music worth exploring. She finished with Tzigane which brought the house down! Encore Salut'd'amore. All for £18 too.

**gamba** · 16-07-13, 13:09

Why waste money on a presenter ? Have to look at her draped over a fancy balcony instead of items of interest. What's wrong with a ' voice over ' where we can be scrutinising violins, the reason for the programme in the first case & no unnecessary clothing charge ( if applicable ! ).

Why do we always have to have programmes ' tarted-up ' in order to attract those who might otherwise be uninterested !

**Dave2002** · 16-07-13, 13:22

Originally posted by gamba View Post

Why waste money on a presenter ? Have to look at her draped over a fancy balcony instead of items of interest. What's wrong with a ' voice over ' where we can be scrutinising violins, the reason for the programme in the first case & no unnecessary clothing charge ( if applicable ! ).

Why do we always have to have programmes ' tarted-up ' in order to attract those who might otherwise be uninterested !

Possibly to distract many people who may be making a contribution to paying the bills from worrying about it all too much.

**gamba** · 16-07-13, 13:24

I appear to have answered my own question !!

Secret Knowledge: Stradivarius and Me

Secret Knowledge: Stradivarius and Me

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