Secret Tunnel wars

[Anna]

Anna, You have a PM.

And you, Pegleg, are an absolute marvel! Your query on GWF has had a reply and a picture of his gravestone at Ljissenthoek. I will reply to your PM but need to digest all the info you have given me. In the meantime I've not had much luck with searching our library online for the recommended books (it's only a tiny one) but have found Edmund Blundon as recommended by you and aeolium at Abe Books for just over £3, which I'll order tomorrow.

[Pegleg]

And you, Pegleg, are an absolute marvel! Your query on GWF has had a reply and a picture of his gravestone at Ljissenthoek. I will reply to your PM but need to digest all the info you have given me. In the meantime I've not had much luck with searching our library online for the recommended books (it's only a tiny one) but have found Edmund Blundon as recommended by you and aeolium at Abe Books for just over £3, which I'll order tomorrow.

You're too kind. I'm not sure about being a marvel, I had already found that photo and had completely forgotten to tell you

I think your £3 was well spent!

[Historian]

Presumably the Royal Engineers museum will have some info. There were large numbers of miners recruited into regiments apart from the DCLI - the Durham Light Infantry for instance. Perhaps they'd have info as well.

The Royal Engineers Museum is very helpful, but please note the message on this page. Having said that, we must remember the scale of the British Expeditionary Force of the First World War. The Royal Engineers alone had reached a strength of 295,000 men by 1st August 1917, although this includes all theatres of the war. It is probably still worth contacting them at Brompton, as they may have information not available anywhere else. I believe that the splendid Peter Barton, the pre-eminent authority on the Tunnellers nowadays, may still be associated with the R.E. Library.

As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, many of the relevant personnel records were destroyed during the Second World War. This happened because of 'enemy action'. However, I believe that the Public Record Office seriously considered destroying all but a token sample of pre-First World War service records in the 1960s, before somebody pointed out that they might be worth preserving.

[Pegleg]

I believe that "First World War service records" have been thinned out in the past before Blitz damage. If it wasn't for the WFA millions of other precious records would have ended up in the skip:

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/history-wfa/2079-did-you-know-medal-index-cards.html

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-current-news/pension-records.html

[Historian]

The official version is that many of the soldiers' documents were destroyed in the Arnside Street fire in September 1940. How much weeding went on before that is unclear, although there have been suspicions that certain classes of military documents were conveniently described as 'destroyed by enemy action', whereas the true explanation for their destruction might have lain elsewhere. However, the good news is that some have survived; if you are lucky, you can inspect them on Ancestry.com (other family history sites are available), or of course the P.R.O. (sorry The National Archives) in classes W.O. 364 and 363 (on microfilm). The Guards do things differently, as the above link will show.

However, the Western Front Association has done a great service by preserving the records you mentioned in your latest post. This is a an extremely important source, which deserves to be better known.

[Pegleg]

The Guards do things differently, as the above link will show..

What a pleasure is it to look at those properly kept Guards records compared to the poor grade images dished up at Ancestry. The indexing is poor and the gross number of transcription errors can be a real hindrance. The attitude of the ANZAC and Canadian authorities has been entirely different to our own, but of course they never had to deal with the vast volume of paperwork that existed in the UK.

[Pegleg]

A fine reading list, Pegleg. I found Blunden's Undertones of War an extraordinary book, a description in beautiful prose of horror and destruction. I would add one 'must read' book to your list - Paul Fussell's The Great War and Modern Memory, a quite superb book using many sources from the period.

Thank you for reminding of Paul Fussell's book. I believe I only dipped a toe in this some years ago. For anyone interest in the debate about the "Great War & Cultural Memory" it's an important contribution. But there are counter arguments. This recent blog page attempts to summarise this: http://adrianbarlowsblog.blogspot.co...t-war-and.html In particular he quotes Professor Dan Todman who in insists on a balanced assessment of the War at the time of the Armistice:

Notwithstanding the enormous casualty lists, in 1918 many Britons thought they had achieved a miraculous deliverance from an evil enemy. They celebrated a remarkable military victory and national survival. For those who had served in the trenches, and for those left at home, the war experience encompassed not only horror, frustration and sorrow, but also triumph, pride, camaraderie and even enjoyment, as well as boredom and apathy.

And Edmund Blunden wrote to introduce a revised edition of his Undertones of War (1928):

This book, which was written with no grander ambition than to preserve some of a multitude of impressions, and admirations, is a sketch of a happy battalion – happy in spite of terrible tasks and daily destruction. I have been blamed for casting a romantic light on such a damnable subject as real war. But I did no more than put on paper what most of my companions felt too.

[Pegleg]

Also, thanks for the list. After a shattering tour of the battle site at Verdun I felt the need to read up on the subject and bought The Price of Glory by Alistair Horne - the only one from the list which I have read and thoroughly recommendable.

We have some personal WW1 documents. My wife is German and her grandfather was killed in November 1914 when her father was 8 years old. The family produced a memorial booklet of letters, photos and reminiscences. It makes fascinating reading all these years later. Especially touching is his last letter in which he thanks his son for the drawing he has sent him.

I should not have let your post pass without remark. I'm not sure I'd care to stare into the great Douaumont Ossuary, the scale of suffering it represents is staggering. Apart from a few photos, nothing of the nature that your wife has exists in our families. They are important to keep and hand down for so many reasons. I'm not proud to say it, but I'm guilty of too often thinking of those who served in the German Army as an amorphous mass in Feldgrau.

[aeolium]

Notwithstanding the enormous casualty lists, in 1918 many Britons thought they had achieved a miraculous deliverance from an evil enemy. They celebrated a remarkable military victory and national survival. For those who had served in the trenches, and for those left at home, the war experience encompassed not only horror, frustration and sorrow, but also triumph, pride, camaraderie and even enjoyment, as well as boredom and apathy.

I'm sure there is an element of truth in that, Pegleg. My mother told me that she thought my grandfather, the one who was in the RAMC, was constantly trying to recreate with his friends the kind of camaraderie he had experienced in the war, notwithstanding the horrific circumstances. And when I saw the 1916 film of the Battle of the Ancre, shown with the original piano medley last year at the Cheltenham Music Festival, I was amazed at the generally cheerful character of the medley, with mixtures of popular classical tunes and music hall songs, as well as marching songs from the war.

But I think it is really hard for anyone to argue that the Great War was either necessary or that its effects could have been contained. The diplomats involved in the key negotiations before war broke out knew that the war would be horrific, on a massive scale and would in all probability devastate European civilisation. It cannot remotely be regarded as a triumph for the allies given what it led to: the collapse of both Habsburg and Ottoman empires which were more stable than what succeeded them; the Russian Revolution; the rise of Nazism and fascism in Italy and Spain; disastrous instability in the Middle East where the post-1918 settlement was the origin of many of the problems in that region that still plague us.

[Pegleg]

An omission from my list: Vera Brittain's Testament of Youth.

There is a thread elsewhere about Bill Pertwee in Dad's Army etc. who has just passed away. I note that two of the many DA episode titles are, “Under Fire” and “The Big Parade”. Is that more than just coincidence? You can watch King Vidor's silent classic here:

http://retrofilms.in/index.php?productID=379

But I think it is really hard for anyone to argue that the Great War was either necessary or that its effects could have been contained. The diplomats involved in the key negotiations before war broke out knew that the war would be horrific, on a massive scale and would in all probability devastate European civilisation. It cannot remotely be regarded as a triumph for the allies given what it led to: the collapse of both Habsburg and Ottoman empires which were more stable than what succeeded them; the Russian Revolution; the rise of Nazism and fascism in Italy and Spain; disastrous instability in the Middle East where the post-1918 settlement was the origin of many of the problems in that region that still plague us.

The origins, causes, conduct and aftermath of the Great War have been fertile (or should that be futile?) ground for historians and others for decades. There is a full spectrum of theories from Germany's sole guilt to all powers were to blame, with all points in between. It would be challenge for even the most dedicated multi-lingual student or professional to wade through the many volumes published in the official histories publish in Britain, France, Germany and Russia alone. A life's work, you could say.

The spate of post-war memoirs of British “top-brass” and politicians mostly argue the war was inevitable and beyond their control, as nations were sucked into the abyss. That the war was fought to preserve Britain's security and independence, etc, etc. Well they would say that wouldn't they.

As to any triumph, if we take a strictly narrow military view then the likes of both and John Terraine ( 1978 : To Win A War: 1918, the Year of Victory ) and Gary Sheffield (2001: Forgotten Victory: The First World War -Myths and Realities) would argue that there was in the end a kind of triumph. I believe both books should be read, before rejecting this hypothesis.

Apart from anything else he did and wrote, military historian John Terraine was an associate producer and chief screenwriter for the 1964 Great War BBC TV television series. It may be that last time I want anything do with the 1914-18 conflict, but I vowed I would re-watch this in 2014.

One book that's remained on my “to read” list is Niall Ferguson's “the Pity of War” ( 1998). I did make a start on it some years ago, but failed to return to it. The introduction at least is free to read at amazon. Quite a few of the references he sites are available at archive.org. They inlcude:

http://archive.org/details/secretbattle_rm_librivox

http://archive.org/stream/greenmantle00buch#page/n7/mode/2up

http://archive.org/details/disenchantment00montuoft

http://archive.org/details/gallipolidiaryvo19317gut

http://archive.org/details/gallipolidiaryvo22021gut

http://archive.org/details/worldcrisis00chur

http://archive.org/details/cu31924027827975

http://archive.org/details/genesisofwar00asquuoft

There are just not enough hours in the day ….

[aeolium]

The spate of post-war memoirs of British “top-brass” and politicians mostly argue the war was inevitable and beyond their control, as nations were sucked into the abyss. That the war was fought to preserve Britain's security and independence, etc, etc. Well they would say that wouldn't they.

They could hardly admit that it was entirely avoidable and that many millions had been killed and injured pointlessly. They were desperate to salvage their reputations.

As to the military aspect, I don't think it is ever possible to take a "strictly narrow military view" of war: its effects are far too widespread for that. As Clemenceau said "War is too serious a matter to be left to military men" - though the soldiers might equally argue, looking at Clemenceau's performance at Versailles, that peace - and war - were far too important to be left to the politicians.

John Terraine's Great War TV series was excellent - I have it on video and, like you, will try and rewatch it next year (it wouldn't surprise me if the BBC showed it again).

[Anna]

A couple of things, reverting back to the original subject. For those that missed the programme, because it’s had a repeat it’s still available on iplayer until 9th June.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01skvnh/The_Somme_Secret_Tunnel_Wars/

There is an interesting site about La Boisselle here

http://www.laboisselleproject.com/

And a list of men here

https://sites.google.com/site/laboisselletunnellers/system/app/pages/subPages?path=/home

WW1 memorabilia, as mentioned above by guernemanz, is precious and it’s nice that it’s being handed down through the family, letters and photographs are very precious, and sometimes very rare, in family history

Perhaps I could veer wildly off topic ask a question here about memorabilia, not WW1 but WW2 and pre-WW2 (and advice as what to do with it as it's not exactly rare) There are no personal items such as letters. Do I donate to the various regiments and risk them being put in a store room never seeing the light of day or send to an auction of militaria where a collector/historian may find value/interest in them?

Edited to remove unnecessary details of content of memorabilia.

[Pegleg]

Anna,

I'm not sure I have the answer for you, but if there's even a distant family conection I would kept it all. If not, then I would not be inclined to auction it as it is just as likely to be sold on and fragmented. It seems to me that the four boxes should remain together. I'd approach the Paras, if they have a regimental museum, and see what their reaction is. Are they interested in the material at all? Would it remain intact? Would it moulder in a store room?