Joyce Hatto drama, BBC1, 23rd December 2012

[Pabmusic]

why has no prosecution been brought against Barrie ? or hasn't he broken a law ? or is it too difficult to prove ? or has everyone forgiven him ?

I suspect it might simply be the difficulty of proving it. There's a big difference between very strong suspicion and proof beyond reasonable doubt.

[MrGongGong]

It's all electroacoustic music anyway

[Sir Velo]

I suspect it might simply be the difficulty of proving it. There's a big difference between very strong suspicion and proof beyond reasonable doubt.

There is that, although WBC did confess to "manipulation" on a couple of CDs. However, I think the CPS would argue that any criminal prosecution was not in the public interest. Yes there has been fraud but who has lost? Customers may have paid a few quid but they still have fine performances of music they wanted (albeit by different artists than they had assumed). Therefore, you would be looking at a civil case where the plaintiff would be one of the record companies. The main stumbling block here would be that of proving substantial financial loss for the artists or companies. Most of the CDs sold fairly limited amounts, and it would be hard, not to say improbable that any record company could prove that Hatto sales had adversely affected sales of their own product.

For example, would any or all of those who bought the "Hatto" Chopin-Godowsky have bought the Hamelin (which was the genuine Hatto) had the Hatto not come out? Chances are that a good many people bought these recordings because it was Hatto, and the myth of Hatto, as much as for the repertoire itself. If you're not convinced by this argument think of those who buy the latest Argerich, or Richter etc. I would contend that these purchases are as much to do with the artist as the music.

Some of the recordings Barrington-Coupe used had lain neglected for years. Tnere is, therefore, an argument that when the real recordings were revealed it provided these artists with publicity they would not otherwise have received.

[Pabmusic]

There is that, although WBC did confess to "manipulation" on a couple of CDs. I think the CPS would argue that any criminal prosecution was not in the public interest. Yes there has been fraud but who has lost? Customers may have paid a few quid but they still have fine performances of music they wanted (albeit by different artists than they had assumed). Therefore, you would be looking at a civil case where the plaintiff would be one of the record companies. The main stumbling block here would be that of proving substantial financial loss for the artists or companies. Most of the CDs sold fairly limited amounts, and it would be hard, not to say improbable that any record company could prove that Hatto sales had adversely affected sales of their own product. For example, would any or all of those who bought the "Hatto" Chopin-Godowsky have bought the Hamelin (which was the genuine Hatto) had the Hatto not come out? Chances are that a good many people bought these recordings because it was Hatto, and the myth of Hatto, as much as for the repertoire itself. Some of the recordings Barrington-Coupe used had lain neglected for years. Tnere is an argument that when the real recordings were revealed it provided these artists with publicity they would not otherwise have received. If you're not convinced by this argument think of those who by the latest Argerich, or Richter etc. I would contend that these purchases are as much to do with the artist as the music.

Some very good points. You would indeed have had to prove that the buyers would not have bought the CDs had they known the truth - quite a tall order.

[mercia]

Tnere is an argument that when the real recordings were revealed it provided these artists with publicity they would not otherwise have received.

so he's actually provided a useful service, I hadn't thought of that, perhaps ought to earn commission

well done Bazza

[LHC]

I suspect it might simply be the difficulty of proving it. There's a big difference between very strong suspicion and proof beyond reasonable doubt.

Barrington-Coupe admitted the fraud in a letter to Robert von Bahr, owner of BIS, several of whose recordings had been manipulated and then released as Hatto recordings. Robert von Bahr therefore had evidence of the fraud and apparently thought long and hard about suing Barrington-Coupe for damages, but eventually decided not to do so, on the assumption that the hoax recordings were "a desperate attempt to build a shrine to a dying wife".

[Pabmusic]

Barrington-Coupe admitted the fraud in a letter to Robert von Bahr, owner of BIS, several of whose recordings had been manipulated and then released as Hatto recordings. Robert von Bahr therefore had evidence of the fraud and apparently thought long and hard about suing Barrington-Coupe for damages, but eventually decided not to do so, on the assumption that the hoax recordings were "a desperate attempt to build a shrine to a dying wife".

Which wouldn't necessarily prevent a prosecution, but which was a mature and sensible decision, in my view.

[MrGongGong]

One of the things which is interesting about this whole thing (maybe a bit OT ?)
is the idea of how "far away" does a musical object have to be to become a different one ?
or to put it another way, how badly do I have to play a Mozart sonata for it to be something else entirely ?
as Hornspeiler tells us, the "manipulation" of recordings is an everyday thing

so given that all recordings are in some way "manipulated" are the boundaries fixed or more fluid ?

[vinteuil]

One of the things which is interesting about this whole thing (maybe a bit OT ?)
is the idea of how "far away" does a musical object have to be to become a different one ?
or to put it another way, how badly do I have to play a Mozart sonata for it to be something else entirely ?
as Hornspeiler tells us, the "manipulation" of recordings is an everyday thing

so given that all recordings are in some way "manipulated" are the boundaries fixed or more fluid ?

... ah, our old friend the Sorites Problem (aka Wang's Paradox) -

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sorites-paradox

[MrGongGong]

... ah, our old friend the Sorites Problem (aka Wang's Paradox) -

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sorites-paradox

indeed

[Stunsworth]

Late as ever to the party I watched this last night.

I too found it very moving, especially the part at the end when the two ex-pupils paid him a visit. The writing was sentimental but that didn't matter.

I thought the portrayal of the young Hatto was superb. Her love of the music, but the brittleness of her personality coming through very well. It didn't do her mother many favours though.

[JFLL]

Robert von Bahr therefore had evidence of the fraud and apparently thought long and hard about suing Barrington-Coupe for damages, but eventually decided not to do so, on the assumption that the hoax recordings were "a desperate attempt to build a shrine to a dying wife".

A very decent man, Robert von Bahr. Some may remember his lively participation (as 'Bissie') on the Emusic classical boards. You got the feeling that he really wanted to engage with classical listeners, and not just to sell records. (Maybe he's still there on Emusic but I parted company with Emusic some time ago.)

[LeMartinPecheur]

It didn't do her mother many favours though.

Mrs LMP and I felt that Joyce grew to be rather awfully like her own mother at the time of the courtship. WB-C might with advantage have remembered the old adage about taking a good look at your prospective mother-in-law to see how your beloved will develop!