The Secret Life of Streets (BBC Two)

[Serial_Apologist]

Well, I didn't know that. One of my late Uncles talked about the huge crowds the Herne Hill track meets attracted in the pre-WW2 days. He seemed to have traversed the entire nation on pedal power alone.

http://www.savethevelodrome.com/campaign/

Absolute disgrace imv that Dulwich Estates won't cough up the readies necessary to keep the plot upgraded - this is supposed to be the London Olympics and this should be a prime site.

[Anna]

Gentrification, now that is a dirty word. I wonder if will hear about that in the "Secret Life of Streets" series.

Not really Gentification, as it's Wimbledon, downtown but not quite Colliers Wood. But I lived in an 1898 Victorian terrace, a two down + scullery kitchen, two up + third bedroom converted to bathroom. That was in the 1980s. As I recall, neighbours a mix of OAPS, working class, maybe couple of yuppies, all bit envious of those in South Park Gardens double fronted jobs. Now (from a quick search) selling for up to £500,000. As very few of them would have, say in 1960s a bathroom and still had an outside lavvy, if they weren't in Wimbledon would they have been classed as slums (as in Deptford?) No, of course not.

[Lateralthinking1]

As very few of them would have, say in 1960s a bathroom and still had an outside lavvy, if they weren't in Wimbledon would they have been classed as slums (as in Deptford?) No, of course not.

I think that is a very interesting point. Swathes of outer South London had housing that was hardly originally middle class. Much of it though was owner-occupied. Back in the day, those in rented accommodation were easier to control and were ripe for just moving around. I am not sure that there is quite the same distinction now. Whoever and wherever you are, the national interest now comes first. Hence the fact that all those living around, say, Heathrow can never be sure what their futures might be. Arguably the starting point was when work was started on building the "M25" inside London. See, for example, the Westway. A big line was crossed there. But it took many decades to get to the current position of everyone's home being potentially disposable.

It is easy to think that the objective was to make inner South London a place for the very wealthy. In terms of location, it made economic sense but I am not sure that the planning was quite as assured. It was only in the 1980s that the yuppies took over Clapham and similar. But as early as the 1960s, certain kinds of working class people had simply become unfashionable. Being a time when fashion ruled, that apparently was sufficient for the authorities to consider clearances morally acceptable. The bomb sites and remaining slums provided a practical reason for "dealing" with them, many of them were helpful by showing inclinations to want to move to the suburbs anyway and it was, I think, a case of separating out the sheep from the goats. Force them out. Some will move to different areas. The remainder, being viewed as unambitious, were to become the architects' plaything.

So it was shove 'em all together in high rise, call that futuristic or continental to make it sound good, but essentially contain them. They could be an experiment. It is quite possible that there was even a certain punishment involved for the perception that such communities were not wholly welcoming of immigrant cultures. If so, that perception as I have written elsewhere was largely wrong. The working classes of inner South London were a convenient scapegoat for establishment racists in denial. The latter knew that they could be believed for presenting the whites living closest to blacks as being the most uneasy with their presence.

As is often the case, the elderly initially suffered most. Having rented, it is unlikely at 60 or 70 that you will be financially well placed or even of the mind to move to Orpington or Chessington. The same is even more true at 80. Ironically, some of the working classes were coming into their own in the 1960s but the accent was on youth, those with grammar school backgrounds or, at the other end of the scale, long-term council housing. Certainly very modest traders with such little aspiration that they still actually believed in community seemed out of the ark. Ironically, by 1979 when much of the damage had been done, we had a Prime Minister who believed in many of those traditional values. There have been echoes of them recently in Gordon Brown's so-called prudence. But Thatcher didn't believe in society so, whatever some of her other values, she may well have made the same changes a decade earlier. As for today's politicians, they see it all as a trivial sideshow away from major events on the world stage.

[Pegleg]

Not really Gentification, as it's Wimbledon, downtown but not quite Colliers Wood. But I lived in an 1898 Victorian terrace, a two down + scullery kitchen, two up + third bedroom converted to bathroom. That was in the 1980s. As I recall, neighbours a mix of OAPS, working class, maybe couple of yuppies, all bit envious of those in South Park Gardens double fronted jobs. Now (from a quick search) selling for up to £500,000. As very few of them would have, say in 1960s a bathroom and still had an outside lavvy, if they weren't in Wimbledon would they have been classed as slums (as in Deptford?) No, of course not.

Anna, I know South Park Road. My second home for a little over 12 years was in Merton Park. Colliers Wood, South Wimbledon and Wimbledon were all very familiar to me. I was the fifth generation of my family to to live in this area after my grandfather's grandfather arrived in Tooting Graveney around 1880. I left circa 1975. Property prices have always been high in these parts but are now out of all proportion. Once I left the parental home, I could never afford to live there. So while my heart goes out to the community that was bulldozed, it seems to me there are other reasons to feel cut off from your roots. The churchyard of St.Peter and St.Paul Mitcham is the final resting place of large numbers of my family as is the London Road Cemetery Mitcham. It's a sobering thought, but my bones wont be amongst them.

[Lateralthinking1]

Quote from pegleg : Anna, I know South Park Road. My second home for a little over 12 years was in Merton Park. Colliers Wood, South Wimbledon and Wimbledon were all very familiar to me. I was the fifth generation of my family to to live in this area after my grandfather's grandfather arrived in Tooting Graveney around 1880. I left circa 1975. Property prices have always been high in these parts but are now out of all proportion. Once I left the parental home, I could never afford to live there. So while my heart goes out to the community that was bulldozed, it seems to me there are other reasons to feel cut off from your roots. The churchyard of St.Peter and St.Paul Mitcham is the final resting place of large numbers of my family as is the London Road Cemetery Mitcham. It's a sobering thought, but my bones wont be amongst them.

I should be able to contribute to this part of the discussion as my Dad lived in Tooting as a teenager, went to school there, and came second to an unknown Des O'Connor in Brian Michie's talent show at the Granada. Unfortunately, I don't know the area well as he then moved to the St Helier council estate where John Major was born and no doubt studied hard to get his two O'levels.

Sorry!

[Pegleg]

I hope your Dad had a better voice than Des John Major attended Rutlish Grammar School which was near our home in Merton Park. According to Wikipedia the PM to be left school at age 16 in 1959, with three O-levels: History, English Language, and English Literature. He later gained three more O-levels by correspondence course, in the British Constitution, mathematics and economics. Not exactly a high-flyer.

I've bested a few cars down St.Helier Ave on two wheels and you needed to be quick at the rose hill roundabout.

P.S. I agree with much of your #48 post.

[Lateralthinking1]

I hope your Dad had a better voice than Des John Major attended Rutlish Grammar School which was near our home in Merton Park. According to Wikipedia the PM to be left school at age 16 in 1959, with three O-levels: History, English Language, and English Literature. He later gained three more O-levels by correspondence course, in the British Constitution, mathematics and economics. Not exactly a high-flyer.

I've bested a few cars down St.Helier Ave on two wheels and you needed to be quick at the rose hill roundabout.

P.S. I agree with much of your #48 post.

I know Rosehill roundabout well as I lived in Sutton but not places beyond it. In those days, his voice was good enough to come second to Des and he also told many "very funny jokes". He lived on Middleton Road. Apologies for understating JM's qualifications but they seem to change a lot as does his precise relationship with Brixton. My next contribution will be more on topic.

[Anna]

Slightly off-topic, but this looks interesting, just watched the clip from St. Olave's Church, and I don't think it conflicts with any footie viewing although it's completely the wrong century to fit in with our discussions! Tomorrow, BBC4, 9pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00r36lv

[Serial_Apologist]

Slightly off-topic, but this looks interesting, just watched the clip from St. Olave's Church, and I don't think it conflicts with any footie viewing although it's completely the wrong century to fit in with our discussions! Tomorrow, BBC4, 9pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00r36lv

Thanks Anna - I'd have missed that one.

[amateur51]

Slightly off-topic, but this looks interesting, just watched the clip from St. Olave's Church, and I don't think it conflicts with any footie viewing although it's completely the wrong century to fit in with our discussions! Tomorrow, BBC4, 9pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00r36lv

Interesting programme but woe is me! - it's Whispering Dan Cruickshank - more arch than Venice

Why didn't they employ Peter Ackroyd?

[Nick Armstrong]

arch ... Peter Ackroyd

The two are not entirely unconnected either....

However I agree, the temptation to punch Cruickshank is often strong!

[Serial_Apologist]

Whispering Dan Cruickshank - more arch than Venice

He sometimes can be pointed too.

[amateur51]

The two are not entirely unconnected either....

However I agree, the temptation to punch Cruickshank is often strong!

Better still Mrs Meades' better-looking son Jonathan?

[Serial_Apologist]

Better still Mrs Meades' better-looking son Jonathan?

Hmm. Meades is I think better at locating the particular in the general rather than bearing down on the former. That said, he did do a good job on Salisbury Cathedral a few years back. I like his ironic ambivalence. Maybe he should have done the Jubbly!

[amateur51]

Hmm. Meades is I think better at locating the particular in the general rather than bearing down on the former. That said, he did do a good job on Salisbury Cathedral a few years back. I like his ironic ambivalence. Maybe he should have done the Jubbly!

Now you're talking! That would have caused a muck-sweat in Broadcasting Towers - Meades LIVE on the Thames!